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[Music]

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you're in the paracast

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the gold standard of paranormal radio

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and now

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here's gene steinberg

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it's

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1964 again

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is this time travel

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have we gone back through time on the

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wave rider

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here they are

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the originals

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the original teen ufo investigators from

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1964. not all of them some are not with

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us others gave up on the ufo stuff

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others we just didn't reach in time

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but those we have include alan

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now we're as silly as we were in 1964

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we weren't silly in 64. we were serious

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then it's now that the silly comes in

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but don't quote me on that oh no we are

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we're on the air i

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believe with perfect faith in the flying

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saucers and though they may tarry and

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landing on the white house lawn if ever

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there was a time we needed them to land

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on the white house lawn

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it's

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we have as you heard before tim beckley

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one of the ring leaders of those ages

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let's get our

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leader ring or something you're doing

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that now

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for present and accounted for

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we have another person i met in those

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days jerome clark

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who has been sitting back and wondering

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how you doing gene

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good to hear you another old friend from

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that alleged photo from 1964

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rick hillberg

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and he made some comments alan did about

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your weight at the time

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rick lost it and kept it off which is

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more than i can say it comes and goes

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with me

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rig

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or ricky

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sure well let me just say that i've you

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know uh all my clean living

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helpful activities

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have helped me lose and keep my weight

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off

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hey just because i feel like i'm 93

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doesn't mean i am 90. you don't feel

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like you're 93 you're fine

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well

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we've we've come from teenage ufologists

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to senior citizen ufologists

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what a road that was i want to get into

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how this all came together but i just

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want to make one observation about that

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photograph

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that allen sent

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the only one he sent with me in it and

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he picks the one where i'm eating a

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pastry

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it's almost the only one that i have

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gene i mean you

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don't like the photo that i have with

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you interviewing that uh bootlegger uh

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what was his name lail which i like a

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lot because it's a very documentary

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photo so i you know i don't i don't have

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a bunch of them of you

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but i could have used that one but you

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would have complained about that too

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you're never content with me gene

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and i've known you since 1962

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almost as long as i've known

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the elder timothy

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beckley

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whose address i still have memorized

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from those days his mother's address

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actually yes that's correct yes some

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people i'm sure are still sending mail

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there

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well i won't mention the address because

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you still own it right no no no i don't

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oh i haven't i haven't owned that in

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quite a while now don't show up at three

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okay we've got

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as our guest co-host this week randall

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murphy

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who compared to this crew this aging

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crew

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we have

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jay randall murphy as our guest co-host

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this week chris is off doing something

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else

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on special assignment so randall

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you must feel like a young

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whippersnapper compared to the rest of

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us

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hey this is a real treat

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back in 1964 i was about six years old

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and that's about when i started to get

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interested in the subject myself and uh

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started having some strange experiences

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myself as well

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but uh yeah i'm really glad to be here

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thanks for inviting me on

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let me ask each and every one of our

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crew here

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how they got involved in this

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so let me start with jerome clark

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i think i must have met up with you

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through ray palmer's flying saucers

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magazine in the saucer club news section

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is that correct

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yeah i think that's how we all became

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aware of each other's existence

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palmer had that section in his magazine

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that that had a little paragraph about

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what some particular group or newsletter

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was doing

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and we wrote each other and connected

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and before that at least for me as a

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small town kid in minnesota was pretty

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isolated from any kind of national

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saucer scene

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so that connected me with you guys

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what led you to become even interested

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in the flying saucers thing

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reading uh rupell's to report and

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unidentified flying objects

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in

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1957

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it just

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the book just fascinated and thrilled me

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i think a lot of people in our

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generation got started with that book i

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know that if i had read george adamski

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about meeting up with venusians even at

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that young and impressionable age i'd

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have been turned off and thought this

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was all nonsense

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but rupell's book really was a smart

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book and an appeal to my curiosity and i

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didn't know at the time however that i

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had signed up for a life sentence

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you can say that again now rupert was

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interesting about him he died real young

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i think probably in his late 30s of a

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heart condition but before he died like

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a year before

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they came out with an expanded or

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updated edition of the report on ufos

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where he kind of spent three chapters

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mostly recanting the rest of the book

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what was your feeling about that

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well of course my my heart was crushed

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although

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i have come to understand since then

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that rupault at least claimed to be a

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lot more skeptical than he appeared even

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in the original 1956 book

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but that book was

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definitely open-minded and by the time

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he got to the end of it if you yourself

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were all open-minded you thought yeah

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there's something going on here and it's

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pretty interesting

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the the three added chapters that came

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out

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uh several years later were just sort of

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project blue book boiler plate and not

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of great interest but they shocked and

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disappointed people read the first

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edition

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now major kehoe made a big deal the fact

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that he felt

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that ruparel was subjected to severe

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pressure he quoted him as saying that

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he was being given pressure by his

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supervisors

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or the people who were in command saying

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you can't do that you need to back off

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what's your feeling

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well there's no question the air force

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was really unhappy with rupell's book

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and there was feedback but i think that

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rupaul was basically a company man

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and i think that

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he wasn't forced to do something that he

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was really opposed in principle to doing

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he was kind of

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his psychology was such that he was not

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a rebel

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and he just fell back in line

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and he also understood that being

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associated in a positive way with ufos

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wasn't going to do his his hope for

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writing career any good in fact when he

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proposed his second book which was never

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published but he did have a proposal for

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the history of the airline industry

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united states he never even mentions

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anywhere that he had written a book

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about ufos

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now what's i'm sad about this

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is that people like him

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die so young

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and nowadays of course with the

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advancements of medical science

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very likely

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he might have survived

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no question and i say that myself as a

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heart attack survivor and he died of a

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heart attack he would have survived if

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it had happened in our time but it

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didn't happen in our time and so sadly

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he died young

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same thing said about someone else who

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died in his late 30s

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in the 1970s the late bobby darin

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this amazingly talented singer

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songwriter musician and actor

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and it wasn't just splish splash

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the song that made him famous anyway

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we've got more to come

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chris o'brien's a special assignment so

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we have this crew of former

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teen ufologists jerome clark

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rick kilburg tim beckley allen

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greenfield and gene steinberg whoever he

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is

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whippersnapper

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jay randall murphy you're in the

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[Music]

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we also have swag you know we have all

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these exclusive power cast things that

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jackets and stuff like that for men and

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women we have a power cast aluminum

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that's the swag from the power cast if

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285
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329
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330
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332
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333
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we'd like to hear from you if you have a

334
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:06,079
comment or question about the paracast

335
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:09,600
send it to news at theparacast.com

336
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:12,880
that's news at theparecast.com

337
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,720
and don't forget to visit our famous

338
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:17,199
paracast community forums at

339
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:25,269
we continue as we revisit teen ufology

340
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,519
and the people who started in the 50s

341
00:14:32,069 --> 00:14:29,600
and 60s and they're still around

342
00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:32,079
still crazy after all these years rick

343
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,360
hillberg

344
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:35,600
what got you involved

345
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,320
well it's a really long crazy story but

346
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:40,320
actually when i was in elementary school

347
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,639
back in 1958

348
00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:45,120
the subject of ufos or as we call them

349
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,839
back then flying saucers was brought up

350
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,079
and i think the teacher i don't remember

351
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:52,480
what kind of class it was a civics class

352
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:55,040
a science class i have no idea but the

353
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:56,000
teacher

354
00:15:00,389 --> 00:14:58,160
sent some sort of learning opportunity

355
00:15:01,590 --> 00:15:00,399
so he assigned

356
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:01,600
people to

357
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:04,560
make a report on ufos the pro side and

358
00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:07,600
the con side well i hadn't thought much

359
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:10,880
about the ufos but i said well i don't

360
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:13,920
believe these damn things you know so i

361
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,480
signed up on the con side and i came up

362
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:18,880
with all this information why they can't

363
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,120
be real and why they can't be real

364
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,120
when the presentation was made that the

365
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,959
people who were making the pro side

366
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:26,320
seemed to have a lot of evidence this

367
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:28,160
was 58 this was right after the great

368
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,120
big you know flatback in 57.

369
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,079
so i said well i better take a second

370
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:36,240
look at this well one thing led to

371
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:37,920
another and some of the people who made

372
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:40,560
presentations in that class and you know

373
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:43,600
this was this was in 58 during christmas

374
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:44,560
break

375
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,079
they said hey let's get together and

376
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:48,240
talk about flying saucers so we went to

377
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:51,279
this one steve bogdan's house on

378
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:54,480
december 28 of 1958

379
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,079
and we had a what was semi-organized ufo

380
00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:00,079
meeting and people brought the books

381
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:01,360
that they had i didn't have any books

382
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,959
yet on the subject i didn't even have

383
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,480
rip belt's book

384
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,000
i didn't belong to the science fiction

385
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,680
book club at the time where i think most

386
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:09,680
of us got it eventually through there

387
00:16:13,749 --> 00:16:12,000
but they brought some kehoe books and

388
00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:13,759
this and that and true magazines and

389
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:16,880
whatnot and uh i i kind of got hooked on

390
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,959
it and it's just you know been been that

391
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,560
way ever since

392
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:22,560
how did you take this

393
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:23,440
from

394
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,600
someone reading on the subject

395
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:27,440
for a very brief period of time in your

396
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:29,040
life this skeptic

397
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:31,279
becoming more or less a believer

398
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:33,199
to someone who

399
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:35,279
had his own ufo group

400
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:37,839
wrote magazines published books how did

401
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,720
this become so active for you

402
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:42,160
you know it's really strange it's

403
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:44,639
something that that grows on you as as

404
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:45,600
you know

405
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:48,880
jerry mentioned i think eventually we

406
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:51,680
all got together from the ray palmer

407
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,480
zine you know chasing the flying saucers

408
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:56,800
gray barker we read that and the

409
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:58,560
saucer club news

410
00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:00,880
and the little nucleus of a group that

411
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:03,759
met in 1958 kind of hung on and went

412
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:05,839
together went together

413
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,319
and we got together and then

414
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:10,000
there was a local cleveland group that

415
00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:12,240
was formed in 1956

416
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,319
the cleveland ufology project which was

417
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,559
headed by the the local guy who had a

418
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:18,000
certain amount of fame here in the in

419
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:19,760
the region earl neff

420
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:22,640
and we started attending those meetings

421
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:25,919
and learned more about the subject and

422
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:27,839
why we started doing a newsletter i

423
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,120
don't know but there are three or four

424
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:31,039
of us we got a little mimeograph machine

425
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:33,679
and started making you know newsletters

426
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:35,840
uh i eventually got a spirit duplicator

427
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:37,520
like i think tim did you know back in

428
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,559
the early days the purple smelly paper

429
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:42,720
the printing that came out

430
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:46,880
and i don't know i i just wanted to

431
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,720
learn more about the subject i wanted to

432
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:50,480
share what i was learning with other

433
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,240
people and it's just kind of it

434
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:54,400
snowballed and i mean i've been i've

435
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:56,960
been doing a publication

436
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:01,679
on on ufos or 14 things since 1962 and

437
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,799
and just this past issue the flying

438
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,880
saucer digest which i inherited from

439
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:08,880
almattic we just celebrated our 50th

440
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:11,039
anniversary where i think probably the

441
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:12,640
last ink on paper

442
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,200
zine sausage

443
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:17,280
that's being published today

444
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:18,799
you know people today don't understand

445
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:20,960
the problems we face then because right

446
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:22,799
now everybody can get a cheap laser

447
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:23,760
printer

448
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:24,720
with

449
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:27,120
almost offset quality for like 120

450
00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:30,559
dollars or use maybe 75 dollars and you

451
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:32,000
can print your own magazine of course

452
00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:33,280
you gotta pay for the toner but then you

453
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:34,720
get recycled toner you know how that

454
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,039
works in those days we had to use a

455
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:39,440
mimeograph machine which meant that you

456
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:40,400
had to

457
00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:42,480
type this on a stencil the ink went

458
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,840
through the stencil

459
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,440
and hit the paper

460
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:48,000
and i guess they were cheap enough

461
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,880
but

462
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:50,720
the difficulty was you had to type it

463
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,120
accurately it wasn't like having a

464
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:55,600
computer with a word processor where you

465
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:58,000
had to use one of these clumsy features

466
00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:59,440
that allow you to kind of

467
00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:01,600
erase it but literally speaking it was

468
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:03,280
difficult and it was time consuming i

469
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,000
even owned one so all these techniques

470
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:08,640
we had to use to get magazines out we're

471
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:11,760
really really clunky and difficult

472
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,240
but we were all dedicated to the process

473
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:16,240
but i think the person who really went

474
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:17,520
furthest

475
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:20,000
in just being a ufo publisher

476
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:21,679
forgetting anything else about writing

477
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:24,240
books and magazine articles and going on

478
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:25,600
radio shows

479
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:28,960
was nonetheless tim beckley so what got

480
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,760
you involved in ufos and why did you

481
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:33,679
make it your life's work

482
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:34,960
well you know because i probably

483
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:37,679
couldn't get a job elsewhere

484
00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:41,200
well no actually i i was born in 1947 i

485
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:42,799
guess we were all born around the same

486
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:43,679
time

487
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,039
and uh ufos were very popular and i mean

488
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:49,679
they were in the news you know i mean

489
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:51,919
you turned on the tv and there would be

490
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:54,080
a you know major keyhole

491
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:55,679
you could buy a paperback book like

492
00:20:00,710 --> 00:19:59,120
frank scully's for a quarter or 35 cents

493
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,720
i remember the first

494
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,240
magazine that i ever bought on the

495
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,240
subject and i still have a copy of it

496
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:06,960
here was something called the true outer

497
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,280
spacer it looked like confidential

498
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,520
magazine it had a very garish

499
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:12,960
red and yellow

500
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:15,600
cover to it and it was like where the

501
00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:17,200
chinese from outer space you know but it

502
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:18,160
was using

503
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,480
some of the same ufo photographs that

504
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:23,200
are still used today believe it or not

505
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:27,200
and in 1957 when i was 10 years old i

506
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:30,880
had my first of three ufo sightings warm

507
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:33,760
summer evening we were outside somebody

508
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,400
comes up to the front porch where we are

509
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,400
points out two objects in the sky one

510
00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:40,080
across the street over an abandoned

511
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:42,559
factory building and one over the house

512
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:44,960
or pretty close to the house where i was

513
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:47,360
born and raised and these things uh

514
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:49,120
kind of revolved in the air they're kind

515
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:51,440
of circled up above for about oh i guess

516
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:54,080
maybe 15 minutes or so and then one of

517
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,840
the one across the street looked like

518
00:20:59,430 --> 00:20:57,200
somebody had pulled a light switch

519
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:59,440
because it just disappeared a couple of

520
00:21:02,390 --> 00:21:00,960
days later there was an item in the

521
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,400
newspaper that other people had

522
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:05,039
witnessed this but the authorities were

523
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,799
saying that it was a weather balloon

524
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:09,120
well this was no weather balloon even at

525
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:10,640
the age of 10 i knew it was something

526
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:13,120
that was under intelligent control then

527
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:16,240
i bought a copy of ray palmer's magazine

528
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,360
and like we've all stated so far this is

529
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:21,840
how we all met up uh we

530
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:24,640
started exchanging our newsletters after

531
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:26,720
we started publishing them and we used

532
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,720
to send around little if you remember

533
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:31,360
reel the reel tapes we did take about 10

534
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,720
minutes to give our own thoughts and

535
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,039
opinions and then send it on to the next

536
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,200
person and then about a month or so

537
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:39,280
later we'd get the tape back and so we

538
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,960
could sit there and listen to

539
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:42,960
everybody's conversations and thinking

540
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,520
on the subject and we even had a few

541
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:47,840
conference calls at great expense back

542
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:49,840
before you had unlimited uh you know

543
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:52,799
like uh minutes and texting and things

544
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:54,559
uh along that

545
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:57,039
line so somehow we all managed to to

546
00:22:03,990 --> 00:21:59,919
hook up and we went to ufo conventions

547
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:04,000
together and uh partied a few nights uh

548
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:06,559
you know over the years and uh overall i

549
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:08,159
mean there's been some rough times but

550
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:10,400
i've enjoyed doing it i can't say

551
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:13,039
that i know more about ufos now than i

552
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:15,039
did then but it's it's an intriguing

553
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,200
subject and i think i've come to realize

554
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,039
that it encompasses a lot more than we

555
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,360
thought uh when we were told by major

556
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:23,120
keyhole that these were spaceships you

557
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:26,159
know from some other planet we have alan

558
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:28,880
greenfield tim beckley jerome clark rick

559
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,000
hillberg guest co-host is j randall

560
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:33,919
murphy chris o'brien wanted to be here

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this is jacques valley you're listening

658
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:10,960
to the paracast

659
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,149
you see alan greenfield is not a ghost

660
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,080
yet maybe in a couple of years but he

661
00:27:33,029 --> 00:27:30,960
tries to sound like one

662
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:33,039
so this is the teen ufo just grow up and

663
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:34,799
it's something kind of unique

664
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,679
you know

665
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:38,080
teens still get interested in things

666
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:40,000
but this particular group and a lot of

667
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:42,000
other people got hooked onto the flying

668
00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:44,080
saucer craze in the 50s

669
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:44,960
and

670
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:47,279
by the 60s were writing

671
00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:49,600
articles and books maybe

672
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:51,360
and somebody's lecturing on the subject

673
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:52,480
and some of us

674
00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:53,760
trying to make it

675
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:56,000
to one extent or another our full-time

676
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:56,880
job

677
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:59,279
or get involved in other stuff so alan

678
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:00,960
greenfield we've had you on a number of

679
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:02,880
times in the power cast too

680
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:05,520
so very briefly let's keep it brief now

681
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:08,640
tell us how you got hooked into this

682
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:11,279
i'll do that provided you let me come

683
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:14,080
back to rupelt's second edition and what

684
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:16,960
i know about it let's talk about that

685
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,520
first about rupelt and then your history

686
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:20,880
what do you know about the second

687
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:23,840
edition of the report on unidentified

688
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:26,080
flying objects well

689
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,000
keep in mind i was

690
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:31,120
15 or so but when i read the second

691
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,679
edition i was so angry by those

692
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:35,760
at those three chapters i literally

693
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:38,320
ripped them out of the book i wouldn't

694
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,399
do that now i don't believe in any kind

695
00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:42,559
of book burning but

696
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:46,000
his main argument in that section or

697
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:49,360
whoever actually wrote it was

698
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:51,360
you can't have

699
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:53,919
craft that don't show up on radar and

700
00:28:59,269 --> 00:28:56,799
this was of course long before

701
00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:59,279
stealth technology was available so it

702
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:01,840
was it was an empty argument however

703
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:04,880
many years after that i had an extensive

704
00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:06,399
conversation

705
00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:09,520
with dewey fournette who had been in the

706
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:12,399
early days the pentagon monitor of the

707
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:14,640
air force's ufo

708
00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:16,960
project and he told me exactly it was

709
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:18,880
not a surprise but it was you know

710
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:20,799
coming from somebody who had been there

711
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:22,240
rather than

712
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:25,200
speculation or rumors or outside sources

713
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:27,520
that after the

714
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:31,600
cia panel in 1953

715
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:34,320
which concluded nothing about ufos

716
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:36,240
really just that

717
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:40,480
the 1952 summer wave the july 52 wave

718
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,159
over dc

719
00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:44,960
had so jammed up all kinds of things

720
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,399
from radar to actual planes in the air

721
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:50,640
to people making phone calls and so

722
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:51,520
forth

723
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:55,120
that in the mentality of the 1950s

724
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,799
the soviets could infiltrate private ufo

725
00:30:01,669 --> 00:30:00,640
organizations

726
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:01,679
and

727
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:03,120
cause them

728
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:04,480
to

729
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:07,520
create ufo flaps which indeed they could

730
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,240
i experimented with that much later and

731
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,159
uh simply by announcing look at the

732
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,080
skies you can get

733
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:16,000
hundreds or thousands of phone calls in

734
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,799
any case before you go on allen so

735
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:21,039
basically it's almost like hysteria

736
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:23,039
where people look at any light in the

737
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,960
sky and say my god that's a flying

738
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,960
saucer or maybe they just happen to see

739
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,039
something that is weird

740
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:31,279
well that's a whole different subject i

741
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,679
think a lot of these are legitimate

742
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:35,600
sightings it's just that people are not

743
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,320
constantly looking at the sky

744
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:40,080
our old friend

745
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:42,720
reverend strange's used to say

746
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:44,960
if you want to see a flying saucer this

747
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:48,159
was in his preaching thing he said look

748
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:49,039
up

749
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:51,120
well most people don't you know most of

750
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:53,919
the time and so you don't

751
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:55,840
see things of course they're looking at

752
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:58,960
their cell phones man yeah that's right

753
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:00,960
i see people talking to themselves and

754
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:02,559
for a couple of years i thought they

755
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:04,799
were just you know your average

756
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,799
schizophrenic talking to you and then i

757
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,399
realized they were on some kind of

758
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,559
bluetooth device but yeah they're

759
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:12,559
constantly looking at their cell phones

760
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,919
even when they're behind the wheel of a

761
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:16,080
car which has a pedestrian

762
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:20,000
but in any case you have to put yourself

763
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:22,559
in the mccarthy era where communists

764
00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:24,640
were everywhere i'm a big fan of old

765
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,600
time

766
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,240
radio and some of the shows from that

767
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:30,080
period these

768
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:31,679
fantastical

769
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,760
communist conspiracies from the little

770
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:36,240
old ladies in the communist party usa

771
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:37,360
were

772
00:31:42,389 --> 00:31:40,399
imagined to be you know blowing up uh

773
00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:42,399
power plants and all sorts of things

774
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:44,799
they wanted to shut down

775
00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:47,200
interest in ufos

776
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:49,919
and i think that that simply

777
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:52,880
reached a point where rupelt was put in

778
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:54,799
the picture and said

779
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:57,919
he probably got a visit probably from

780
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:00,559
not from the cia directly

781
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:03,519
but if if it was a commitment of that

782
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:04,640
era

783
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:08,000
to diminish interest in flying saucers

784
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:09,919
ufos whatever

785
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:13,120
in order to protect us from that menal

786
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:16,000
soviet attack that was coming

787
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:17,360
then

788
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:19,440
he probably got told to write those

789
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:21,200
chapters or they were written for him

790
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,200
because the style is

791
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:25,519
quite different i take into account what

792
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,399
jerry said that he might have written a

793
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:30,559
more skeptical book in the first place

794
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:31,840
but

795
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:33,840
you know people say things after the

796
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,440
fact to justify whatever they did so

797
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:39,440
my general thought is

798
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:41,519
he was told to write those three

799
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:44,399
chapters and they came out uh in that

800
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:47,919
way fornay was unequivocal about that

801
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,200
that ufology private ufology was

802
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:53,200
considered a threat

803
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:57,120
to national security not ufos and the

804
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,720
government was acting accordingly the

805
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:00,559
government has never known anything

806
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:03,519
about ufos or really much

807
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:06,720
cared after the very very early days

808
00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:09,519
that's not that's not where it is and

809
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:11,840
their approach was strictly nuts and

810
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:13,600
bolts and you just don't get anywhere

811
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:14,720
with that

812
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:15,760
um

813
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:16,480
so

814
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:18,799
that's basically what what i had to say

815
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:21,200
on that subject i believe that he's he

816
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:23,760
switched sides because he had to now

817
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:26,480
that's what major kehoe said major keogh

818
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:28,320
quoted in his books

819
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:31,279
rupelt saying i can't handle this much

820
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:33,279
longer he was under deep pressure so

821
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,840
that's why i come to that conclusion

822
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:37,360
okay he

823
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:39,440
here's the deal um

824
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,399
kehoe has diminished in my respect to

825
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,519
the pulp writer that he was uh over the

826
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:47,279
years because

827
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:49,039
um

828
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:50,320
he

829
00:33:56,549 --> 00:33:54,000
uh said that rupell probably died

830
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:56,559
because he felt bad about having to

831
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:58,480
write those chapters but as jerry

832
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:00,080
pointed out

833
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:02,880
people died i don't know if he smoked i

834
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:04,799
don't know what the particulars of his

835
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:07,840
situation were but uh i don't find his

836
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:10,320
death that mysterious and i don't think

837
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:13,040
it had anything to do with his ufo book

838
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:15,599
i think he just you know unfortunately

839
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:17,919
died young sometimes they do

840
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,280
sometimes they live to be 90 whatever it

841
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:24,000
was that leonard cohen was i mean it's

842
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:26,639
you know some of its dna and some of its

843
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:29,119
lifestyle and uh

844
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:32,079
who knows uh what that was and the kehoe

845
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:34,720
had no right to really

846
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:38,159
infer that but the notion that uh that

847
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:40,879
he was pressured to write the chapters

848
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,000
or given the chapters to put in the book

849
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,119
uh that is consistent with what the cia

850
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:49,440
panel recommended it's consistent with

851
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:51,599
what happened to the ifsb it's

852
00:34:57,910 --> 00:34:54,960
consistent with the formation

853
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:57,920
of nycap which was originally civilian

854
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:59,680
and then all of a sudden you had all of

855
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:00,960
these

856
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:02,800
military types taking over the

857
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:05,520
organization and chasing nuts and bolts

858
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:07,040
all over the place

859
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:09,520
i think that

860
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:10,400
it

861
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:16,240
the notions that were around during the

862
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:20,240
mccarthy era which really only ended in

863
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,280
um

864
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,920
after uh well i guess during the johnson

865
00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:25,760
administration

866
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:28,720
even then you know the the myth that we

867
00:35:31,109 --> 00:35:29,520
were

868
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:31,119
dealing with

869
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:32,079
that

870
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,520
dealing with a

871
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:34,560
vast

872
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:37,520
unified communist conspiracy that was

873
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:39,599
going to overthrow the world

874
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:42,880
was simply not true and

875
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:45,200
pretty much revisionist historians have

876
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:46,640
said that doesn't make

877
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:50,240
communism a good system it does however

878
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:51,520
uh

879
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,520
explain a lot of

880
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:56,160
what the country did back in the day

881
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:57,599
we'll get into more of this and i want

882
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,000
jerry clark's response to the

883
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:02,560
matter of keo and rupelt in a moment

884
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:04,400
want to remind you also that we have a

885
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second radio show called after the para

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weekend's episode of after the power

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cast we will be featuring

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we have tim beckley allen greenfield

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hi this is tracy tormey screenwriter

1005
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:10,480
producer you're listening to paracast

1006
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:21,030
we continue the teen ufologists grow up

1007
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:22,160
and become

1008
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,440
something

1009
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:25,680
someone else now it sounds like the

1010
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,480
opening theme for the tv show arrow

1011
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,480
anyway jerry clark

1012
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:32,480
you heard what allen had to say about

1013
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,440
rupelt about kehoe and nycap

1014
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:37,200
some responses

1015
00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:39,760
well the mccarthy era actually ended in

1016
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:43,599
1954 with the army mccarthy hearings

1017
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:46,319
and the country kind of shook its way

1018
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,119
out of there and things changed a lot

1019
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:51,920
the communist party usa was

1020
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:55,359
viewed with justifiable suspicion since

1021
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,440
at least for the early part of its

1022
00:42:02,390 --> 00:41:59,839
history starting in the 20s

1023
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:02,400
and during world war ii

1024
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:04,480
and just after world war ii some of the

1025
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:06,079
espionage

1026
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:06,880
was

1027
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:11,280
funneled through the cp usa

1028
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:14,400
so the mccarthy era which was a terrible

1029
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:16,800
time we can all agree and full of

1030
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:19,760
hysteria and so on but wasn't

1031
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:22,720
entirely imaginary there was actual

1032
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,920
soviet espionage going on some of it was

1033
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:28,160
going through there was a visible cpu

1034
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:29,359
usa

1035
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,119
where there were direct dealings with

1036
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:37,680
soviet intelligence officers and so on

1037
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,160
and there's a really a vast literature

1038
00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:42,240
on this stuff which is a subject that's

1039
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:45,760
always interested me for some reason now

1040
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:47,839
there isn't really

1041
00:42:52,390 --> 00:42:50,560
any very good evidence that i am aware

1042
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:52,400
of and i certainly look for it when i

1043
00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:55,680
was researching my ufo encyclopedia

1044
00:43:00,950 --> 00:42:59,200
that the cia's idea that ufo group

1045
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:00,960
should be infiltrated

1046
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:02,640
and brought to heel

1047
00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:04,800
ever was really fulfilled it was a

1048
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,520
recommendation that the robertson panel

1049
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:10,079
made in late 1953

1050
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:12,880
but if there was any action on it it was

1051
00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:14,319
sporadic

1052
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:17,440
and uncoordinated and i think that if we

1053
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:21,040
take this too seriously too literally we

1054
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,240
may get

1055
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:25,200
a more sinister conspiratorial idea of

1056
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:27,520
what was actually going on

1057
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:30,319
as far as nycap is concerned

1058
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:32,240
when i was researching the encyclopedia

1059
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:34,000
i had access

1060
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:37,200
to nycap files which were housed at the

1061
00:43:41,829 --> 00:43:39,760
kufos files in chicago

1062
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:41,839
i went through them extensively and i

1063
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:44,000
have a fairly full account in my

1064
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:45,920
encyclopedia of how

1065
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:48,480
nycat came to disintegrate

1066
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:51,599
the first problem was that kehoe was a

1067
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:54,319
terrible administrator he had no

1068
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:56,400
administrative skills

1069
00:44:02,390 --> 00:43:59,599
he didn't know how to to run a budget

1070
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,400
and nycap was going through periods of

1071
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:04,960
feast and famine when there was ufo wave

1072
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:06,960
there was a lot of interesting ufos

1073
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,160
nycaps

1074
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:10,160
membership would shoot up

1075
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:13,040
into the tens of thousands and then when

1076
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,240
interest

1077
00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:16,800
had receded people wouldn't renew their

1078
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:19,119
subscriptions or their memberships

1079
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:20,960
all of a sudden the budget was down to

1080
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:22,480
practically nothing

1081
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:24,560
so it was really it was just hard to

1082
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,079
work for nycap dick hall worked there

1083
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:30,800
dick was a friend of mine and there were

1084
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,720
there were times you know they didn't

1085
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:34,240
know if their paychecks were going to

1086
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,079
clear and they weren't exactly making a

1087
00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:37,920
fortune working there

1088
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:41,599
what happened was that eventually

1089
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,680
the board of governors

1090
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:45,119
realized

1091
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,400
particularly j.b hartrap who was

1092
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:50,720
a prominent member of the board and also

1093
00:46:00,390 --> 00:44:51,520
a

1094
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,400
of

1095
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:03,119
organizational problems and incompetence

1096
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,800
at the highest level

1097
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:07,359
so all these rumors and all these claims

1098
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:08,400
jerry

1099
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:09,520
that maybe

1100
00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:12,160
nycap was a military front because kehoe

1101
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,800
had it so heavily laden with former

1102
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:16,960
military you don't think that amounted

1103
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,160
to anything

1104
00:46:22,150 --> 00:46:20,079
remember that cahill was a cruel

1105
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:22,160
military guy who

1106
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:25,040
had also worked in the pentagon so most

1107
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:27,760
of his friends were generals and

1108
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:29,839
admirals and then they were also

1109
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,119
right-wingers

1110
00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:33,440
and so they were not only military guys

1111
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:35,119
they were politically in sympathy with

1112
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:38,480
them and and kehoe saw these guys

1113
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:40,720
as really the smart guys and the

1114
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:43,200
authorities and he was most comfortable

1115
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:44,480
in the presence

1116
00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:47,119
of uh generals and admirals so i don't

1117
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:48,400
think there was anything particularly

1118
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,240
sinister about this these were just the

1119
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:52,319
guys that killed no

1120
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:54,839
now with rupelt do you think kehoe

1121
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:58,079
exaggerated his friendship with rupelt

1122
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,960
and the impact of having to deal with

1123
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,359
the revision to his book i think that

1124
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,119
kehoe genuinely believed that he was

1125
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:07,440
closer to rupelt and roofel believed he

1126
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,000
was close to keough and rupelt in his

1127
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:12,880
books takes a lot of shots at keyhole

1128
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:14,720
you know even in the first edition he

1129
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,920
thinks that keo exaggerated and and

1130
00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:20,160
imagined cover-ups where they weren't

1131
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:22,560
going on and rubell

1132
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:25,200
did not believe there was a conspiracy

1133
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:28,079
to conceal ufo reports and i think he

1134
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:30,480
was certainly right about that and of

1135
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:33,359
course kehoe was entirely focused

1136
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:36,240
more than on ufos as such more on the

1137
00:47:41,829 --> 00:47:39,760
cover-up of ufos and if you read kehoe's

1138
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:41,839
books he's really more interested in

1139
00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:44,160
bashing the air force than really

1140
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:46,240
thinking deeply and seriously about what

1141
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:49,359
the ufo reports might represent he

1142
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,200
considers it a kind of given that

1143
00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:53,680
they're probably interplanetary

1144
00:47:58,550 --> 00:47:56,240
spaceships by interplanetary i think he

1145
00:48:00,550 --> 00:47:58,560
basically thought they were from mars

1146
00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:00,560
because in the 1950s it was still

1147
00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:02,560
possible to believe that mars might be

1148
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:05,119
inhabited but he didn't really think

1149
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:08,400
very much about this in any serious way

1150
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:12,160
he was focused on the cover-up and the

1151
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:15,200
bureaucracy of the cover-up as alan says

1152
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:18,640
quite well that kehoe was a pulp writer

1153
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:20,319
and you go back to his books and you're

1154
00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:22,880
reading the ufo mystery

1155
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:25,359
filtered through the sensibility of a

1156
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:27,920
pulp fiction writer they read like pulp

1157
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:30,240
fiction novels i agree with you and then

1158
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:32,640
in terms of some of the cases you got

1159
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:34,880
what i learned from our old friend jim

1160
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,440
mosley so many years ago when he was

1161
00:48:41,910 --> 00:48:39,760
actually going to be a co-author of a

1162
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,920
ufo book in the 50s

1163
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:42,960
is that

1164
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:45,839
teho would get these cases from project

1165
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:47,760
blue book on the phone he'd write them

1166
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:48,640
down

1167
00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:51,359
but jim went over there and physically

1168
00:48:55,990 --> 00:48:53,680
took a typewriter and copied them down

1169
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:56,000
except that when kehoe learned of that

1170
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,520
he had a freak out

1171
00:49:01,190 --> 00:48:59,280
how could you let that guy look at those

1172
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,200
cases how dare you

1173
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,000
so you know i always wonder here about

1174
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,400
kiho's access but also if he's taking

1175
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:08,160
that stuff verbally

1176
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:10,000
i could see where the notes can get a

1177
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:11,520
little bit

1178
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,319
shall we say distorted well that's the

1179
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,559
keyhole like the sensationalize

1180
00:49:21,430 --> 00:49:18,880
before we trash

1181
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:21,440
kehoe too much i mean

1182
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:23,839
i think nycap was a kind of irrelevancy

1183
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:26,319
for a lot of reasons but

1184
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:29,280
i must take exception to some of the

1185
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:31,520
no surprise here to some of the things

1186
00:49:34,710 --> 00:49:33,520
that jerry is saying

1187
00:50:02,589 --> 00:49:34,720
i

1188
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:02,599
cpusa but at by the

1189
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:04,240
mid-1950s

1190
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:06,720
the communist party usa

1191
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:09,040
as someone pointed out in national

1192
00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:11,839
review of all places their obituary

1193
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,839
column was the largest part of their

1194
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:15,599
newspaper they were just little old

1195
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:19,359
ladies from the mid 50s on while they

1196
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:21,599
had been a serious organization back in

1197
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,720
the 1930s after the doctors plot they

1198
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:26,640
lost most of their jewish membership

1199
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:28,559
because it became obvious that stalin

1200
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:29,680
was

1201
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:31,839
anti-semitic that there were there were

1202
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:34,559
a whole host of reasons that people left

1203
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:35,760
including

1204
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:38,079
i will also take exception to the notion

1205
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:40,800
that mccarthyism in the broader sense of

1206
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:43,920
the term ended with the army mccarthy

1207
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:46,400
hearings of course that ended mccarthy's

1208
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:48,160
career because you don't go after the

1209
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:51,280
military and get away with it but

1210
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:52,800
um

1211
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:55,920
the the paranoid anti-communism that

1212
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:58,000
broadly speaking is characteristic of

1213
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,640
mccarthyism one of the key players and

1214
00:51:05,109 --> 00:51:02,800
that was richard nixon and not only did

1215
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:05,119
he run for president not only was he

1216
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:08,319
vice president until 1960 but he became

1217
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,000
president of the united states during

1218
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:12,640
the vietnam war we've got more to come

1219
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:15,839
the teen ufologists definitely grow up

1220
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,920
we have rick hillberg helen greenfield

1221
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:19,200
jerome clark

1222
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,240
tim beckley guest co-host is jay randall

1223
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,319
murphy who's just sitting back a fly on

1224
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:26,559
the wall listening you're in the

1225
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:39,280
[Music]

1226
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:40,400
[Applause]

1227
00:51:45,150 --> 00:51:43,920
thank you for listening to gcn

1228
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:45,160
be sure to visit

1229
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:47,920
gcnlive.com today

1230
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:49,920
attack of the rockoids has been well

1231
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:52,240
received by critics and readers alike

1232
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,839
it's a thrill a minute story you'll

1233
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,280
never forget

1234
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,200
a former u.s military intelligence

1235
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,680
officer is haunted by intense dreams

1236
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,240
about a beautiful woman pleading for his

1237
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:04,559
help after a terrible battle in outer

1238
00:52:07,829 --> 00:52:05,680
space

1239
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:07,839
but the dreams turn out to be true and

1240
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:09,760
thrust him into a telepathic love affair

1241
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:12,480
with a woman whose far away planet is

1242
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:14,960
intent on destroying the earth

1243
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:17,440
and now the gripping tale continues in

1244
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the coming of the protectors it's the

1245
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:22,480
second book of the rockoids trilogy a

1246
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galaxy spanning adventure that pits our

1247
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hapless heroes against powerful

1248
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fanatical enemies that threaten the

1249
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:31,119
lives of freedom-loving beings

1250
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1251
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the coming of the protectors classic

1252
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science fiction at its best available

1253
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now

1254
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for more details visit rockoids.com

1255
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that's r o c k

1256
00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:51,510
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1257
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1260
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1261
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1262
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1264
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1266
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1269
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1270
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1273
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1275
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1277
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1278
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1279
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1280
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[Applause]

1281
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:00,000
welcome back to the paracast the gold

1282
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:03,599
standard of paranormal radio

1283
00:54:08,180 --> 00:54:04,880
and now

1284
00:54:12,150 --> 00:54:08,190
here's gene steinberg

1285
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,670
we've got alan greenfield and rick

1286
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,920
hillberg and jerome clark and tim

1287
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:17,599
beckley and guest co-host jay randall

1288
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:18,559
murphy

1289
00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:21,440
and before we go on listening to what

1290
00:54:24,069 --> 00:54:22,720
alan said

1291
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:24,079
jerry do you have any further comments

1292
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:25,440
before we move on

1293
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:27,920
yeah i don't agree with alan's reading

1294
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:28,800
history and i think that he

1295
00:54:32,150 --> 00:54:31,280
misunderstood something and i said

1296
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:32,160
that

1297
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:34,960
the mccarthy era ended in 1954 in the

1298
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:37,680
1950s communist party been completely

1299
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:40,559
desiccated nobody's arguing about that

1300
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:42,880
richard nixon's career is a whole other

1301
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:46,079
story and nixon makes his name

1302
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:47,760
as a political figure when he was a

1303
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:50,720
congressman from california in 1948 with

1304
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:52,640
the alger hiss case which was an

1305
00:54:57,109 --> 00:54:55,599
espionage case involving a guy who had a

1306
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,119
long career

1307
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,280
in u.s government service

1308
00:55:02,790 --> 00:55:01,440
and was retired from the state

1309
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:02,800
department

1310
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:06,000
when he was accused of in 1948 by

1311
00:55:10,790 --> 00:55:09,520
whitaker chambers of being a soviet spy

1312
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:10,800
which he was

1313
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:13,440
we we now know that that wasn't

1314
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:16,240
mccarthyism because that was an actual

1315
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:19,520
case involving actual espionage but what

1316
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:21,520
the his case did

1317
00:55:25,750 --> 00:55:23,200
was trigger

1318
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:25,760
a hysteria that made

1319
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:29,599
mccarthy and his allies possible

1320
00:55:34,470 --> 00:55:32,720
richard nixon's career started

1321
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:34,480
in these sort of

1322
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:37,760
milieu of anti-communism and soviet

1323
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:41,200
espionage but his career past the

1324
00:55:47,829 --> 00:55:44,240
mccarthy era really took a different

1325
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:47,839
attack i have read virtually every major

1326
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:50,000
biography of richard nixon has ever been

1327
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:51,359
published

1328
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:53,760
so i know something about nixon whom i

1329
00:55:59,670 --> 00:55:56,880
do not admire so i'm not defending he

1330
00:56:01,589 --> 00:55:59,680
was not a mccarthyite for his entire

1331
00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:01,599
political career

1332
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:03,200
he just got started in the

1333
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,319
anti-communist milieu he was a member of

1334
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:08,160
the house on american activities

1335
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:12,880
committee in 1948 when his case emerged

1336
00:56:17,150 --> 00:56:15,599
by the latter 1950s

1337
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:17,160
yes there was still

1338
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:19,119
anti-communist feelings some of it

1339
00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:20,799
justified some of it

1340
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:22,799
on the historical side

1341
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:25,680
but the mccarthy era has a beginning and

1342
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:27,440
an end now

1343
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:29,040
it continued

1344
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:31,119
huwak the house on american activities

1345
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:33,760
committee continued into

1346
00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:35,760
the 1960s

1347
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,400
and it was still possible for the for

1348
00:56:42,870 --> 00:56:40,960
hugh act to make mischief and accuse

1349
00:56:45,589 --> 00:56:42,880
some innocent people and of course

1350
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:45,599
that's not good nobody defends that

1351
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:49,119
but the era of intense destructive

1352
00:56:55,270 --> 00:56:52,960
witch hunts is really confined to

1353
00:56:57,910 --> 00:56:55,280
at its most intense moment to the

1354
00:57:01,589 --> 00:56:57,920
mccarthy era mccarthy was censored by

1355
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:01,599
the us senate in 1957 by which time he

1356
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:04,640
had collapsed into alcoholism and was

1357
00:57:10,710 --> 00:57:08,000
completely ineffective after the 1954

1358
00:57:13,270 --> 00:57:10,720
army mccarthy hearing mccarthy was just

1359
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:13,280
kind of a ghost who haunted the halls of

1360
00:57:20,230 --> 00:57:16,240
the senate and he died young of fairly

1361
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:20,240
young of cirrhosis of the liver in 1957.

1362
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:22,400
let me say that what i'm talking about

1363
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:23,280
is

1364
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:25,040
just looked up the definition in two

1365
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:26,960
different things merriam-webster says

1366
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:28,960
broadly defamation of character or

1367
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:32,400
reputation through such tactics so i was

1368
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:34,559
not necessarily referring just to

1369
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:36,400
mccarthy but to people that use that

1370
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:37,680
tactics and

1371
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:40,160
one other point okay that's very

1372
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:41,280
important

1373
00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:43,680
i don't think that you have to have been

1374
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:48,160
a fan of mccarthy in fact if you read

1375
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:50,720
books on mccarthy you would find that it

1376
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:53,680
was nixon who stalled mccarthy while he

1377
00:57:59,109 --> 00:57:56,799
was being censored uh because he was uh

1378
00:58:01,270 --> 00:57:59,119
eisenhower's hatchet man that was the

1379
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:01,280
way of it but

1380
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:04,319
in fact despised mccarthy and it doesn't

1381
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,240
matter it doesn't matter if it does

1382
00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:08,400
matter it does matter

1383
00:58:11,829 --> 00:58:10,720
jerry go ahead please and we'll get back

1384
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,839
to you and then we gotta wrap this

1385
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:13,200
discussion it's getting off track go

1386
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:15,599
ahead jerry okay this gets off ufos

1387
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,119
anyway but no

1388
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:19,680
mccarthy was not eisenhower's hatchet

1389
00:58:25,109 --> 00:58:21,599
man that is really

1390
00:58:26,549 --> 00:58:25,119
uh no nixon was eisenhower's hatchet man

1391
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,559
is what i just said

1392
00:58:30,069 --> 00:58:28,319
it's enough i think for this let's just

1393
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:30,079
leave it the politics out of it right

1394
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,880
now

1395
00:58:35,589 --> 00:58:33,200
excuse me communist hysteria didn't end

1396
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:35,599
with the 50 000 americans killed in

1397
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:36,400
vietnam

1398
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:39,040
based on a theory that of the uh the

1399
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:41,440
domino theory that all of asia would go

1400
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:42,640
communism all right let's see i don't

1401
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:44,160
want to talk about the vietnam war i'm

1402
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,960
talking about ufos let's focus on ufos

1403
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:48,720
and i just want to ask you there is a

1404
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:50,400
connection which i want to ask you about

1405
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:51,119
here

1406
00:58:54,549 --> 00:58:53,200
allen but first before we go to your

1407
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:54,559
history

1408
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:56,640
the possibility here was there early

1409
00:59:01,430 --> 00:58:58,799
government interest

1410
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:01,440
in ufo believers

1411
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:05,440
because of a possible fear they may be

1412
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,880
infiltrated by foreign spies

1413
00:59:12,549 --> 00:59:10,880
yes that's that's what i was told by

1414
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:12,559
dewey fornay

1415
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,200
who was intimately involved in the air

1416
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:17,599
force investigation and certainly was

1417
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:20,400
privy to the information from the cia

1418
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,160
panel in 1953 of course there was

1419
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,160
that's all that i'm talking about you

1420
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:28,160
can call it whatever you want

1421
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:31,920
anti-communist hysteria or if you are

1422
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:34,079
heavily anti-communist there is an

1423
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:38,000
alternative view of that it was

1424
00:59:43,589 --> 00:59:41,119
red baiting was a horrible thing and it

1425
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:43,599
went on for a very long time it kind of

1426
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:47,359
gotten broke got broken in the um

1427
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:51,040
in the uh film industry by kirk douglas

1428
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:52,240
um

1429
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:57,760
real name because he had been labeled a

1430
01:00:02,470 --> 01:00:00,640
communist which he was but there were a

1431
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:02,480
lot of people who were

1432
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:04,880
you know we were allied with the soviet

1433
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:06,960
union in world war ii so there were a

1434
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:08,720
lot of pre-war

1435
01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:12,160
communists who came to realize sort of

1436
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:12,960
post

1437
01:00:17,990 --> 01:00:15,359
facto that uh the communists

1438
01:00:20,549 --> 01:00:18,000
in the soviet union were not the sort of

1439
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:20,559
uh armchair communists in in this

1440
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,240
country i'm going to ask you something

1441
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:25,040
here i need to get off this okay

1442
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,440
tim you made a comment

1443
01:00:30,789 --> 01:00:28,880
before

1444
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:30,799
which was important that the fbi did

1445
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:32,240
keep files

1446
01:00:38,230 --> 01:00:36,319
um ufo contact such as george adamski

1447
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:38,240
well at george van tassel i know i've

1448
01:00:41,670 --> 01:00:39,040
have

1449
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,680
a report here in my uh

1450
01:00:47,109 --> 01:00:43,680
files

1451
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:47,119
runs about 20 pages that the fbi did in

1452
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,319
investigating the not so much the claims

1453
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:53,040
of the contactees but their

1454
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:56,000
political ideology i guess they were

1455
01:01:01,589 --> 01:00:59,119
concerned that the space brothers were

1456
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:01,599
talking about world peace and a

1457
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:05,280
moneyless uh society and and things that

1458
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:08,079
they considered uh

1459
01:01:13,270 --> 01:01:10,559
communist communism i i mean that's

1460
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,280
basically why they kept tabs on the uh

1461
01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:15,040
the contactees i don't think that they

1462
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:17,680
were uh so concerned with them meeting

1463
01:01:20,870 --> 01:01:19,440
up with the people from other planets

1464
01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:20,880
because obviously

1465
01:01:26,710 --> 01:01:24,160
they didn't buy that uh for a um for a

1466
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:26,720
second now my own opinion on this and

1467
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:29,440
i'm sure that nobody will will agree

1468
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:31,359
that there has been a government

1469
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:33,920
cover-up especially in the early days

1470
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:36,480
because a lot that was going on in the

1471
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:38,400
skies

1472
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:40,559
was because of the fact that we had

1473
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:42,640
bought over under

1474
01:01:49,190 --> 01:01:46,319
a project paperclip about 5000

1475
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:49,200
nazi and i do repeat nazi scientists and

1476
01:01:54,470 --> 01:01:52,640
engineers to work on our space program

1477
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:54,480
and i think that a lot of the the things

1478
01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:56,960
that went on including roswell i mean

1479
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:58,960
nick redford talks about them as as

1480
01:02:03,510 --> 01:02:00,160
being uh

1481
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:03,520
mutants of of of some sort but the these

1482
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:05,440
were the government wanted to cover up

1483
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:08,160
the fact i think that uh they were in

1484
01:02:13,910 --> 01:02:11,839
collusion with these uh uh nazi uh

1485
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:13,920
scientists and engineers including

1486
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,319
warner von braun i've seen photos of him

1487
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:18,559
in an ss uniform so

1488
01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:19,680
suddenly

1489
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:23,040
these uh uh very uh evil uh people which

1490
01:02:27,750 --> 01:02:24,960
they were were brought over here and

1491
01:02:30,309 --> 01:02:27,760
they became our space heroes so i think

1492
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:30,319
a lot of the idea or concept that these

1493
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:33,359
craft were uh interplanetary

1494
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:35,599
the government would rather have you not

1495
01:02:40,710 --> 01:02:38,480
believe in ufos at all but if you were

1496
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:40,720
going to believe in ufos you should

1497
01:02:44,789 --> 01:02:43,599
certainly put them as far away as ground

1498
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:44,799
zero

1499
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:47,599
as possible and move them into uh outer

1500
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:49,599
space because i don't think they wanted

1501
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,359
to be connected with some of these early

1502
01:02:56,069 --> 01:02:53,280
experiments that were going on

1503
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:56,079
alan what's your evidence for that

1504
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:57,839
that was tim

1505
01:03:01,910 --> 01:02:59,680
that was that was me

1506
01:03:03,510 --> 01:03:01,920
what's the evidence well i've written

1507
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:03,520
several books on the subject but i don't

1508
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:05,119
suppose that any of you might have read

1509
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:07,200
any of them because most of the people

1510
01:03:11,190 --> 01:03:10,079
in ufology just keem seem to keep to the

1511
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:11,200
their own

1512
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:13,359
ideology and and thoughts and don't

1513
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:14,720
really want

1514
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:17,839
other people's uh opinions

1515
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:19,359
we gotta stop here

1516
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,119
we got a lot more to come okay it's

1517
01:03:25,029 --> 01:03:23,039
getting interesting here now

1518
01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:25,039
the interactions with jerry clark rick

1519
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:27,200
hill bergow and greenfield

1520
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:29,119
and tim beckley

1521
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:31,119
our guest co-host just sitting there and

1522
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:33,280
watching the wheels go by

1523
01:03:41,070 --> 01:03:35,280
is jay randall murphy

1524
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:47,589
[Music]

1525
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:49,670
attack of the rockoids has been well

1526
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:52,000
received by critics and readers alike

1527
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:53,599
it's a thrill-a-minute story you'll

1528
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:54,960
never forget

1529
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:56,880
a former u s military intelligence

1530
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:59,359
officer is haunted by intense dreams

1531
01:04:04,309 --> 01:04:01,920
about a beautiful woman pleading for his

1532
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:04,319
help after a terrible battle in outer

1533
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,359
space

1534
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:07,520
but the dreams turn out to be true and

1535
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:09,520
thrust him into a telepathic love affair

1536
01:04:14,630 --> 01:04:12,240
with a woman whose far away planet is

1537
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:14,640
intent on destroying the earth

1538
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and now the gripping tale continues in

1539
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the coming of the protectors it's the

1540
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1541
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galaxy spanning adventure that pits our

1542
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hapless heroes against powerful

1543
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fanatical enemies that threaten the

1544
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:30,799
lives of freedom-loving beings

1545
01:04:34,630 --> 01:04:32,000
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1566
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1577
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1591
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1592
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1593
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1594
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1596
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1597
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1598
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1599
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1600
01:06:40,230 --> 01:06:38,480
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1601
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01:06:44,069 --> 01:06:42,640
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1620
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1621
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1622
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1624
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1626
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we'd like to hear from you if you have a

1632
01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:55,599
comment or question about the paracast

1633
01:08:02,470 --> 01:07:59,200
send it to news at the paracast.com

1634
01:08:04,309 --> 01:08:02,480
that's news at theparecast.com

1635
01:08:06,789 --> 01:08:04,319
and don't forget to visit our famous

1636
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:06,799
paracast community forums at

1637
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:14,309
anyway teen ufology strikes back some

1638
01:08:19,030 --> 01:08:16,719
spirited debates especially involving

1639
01:08:20,789 --> 01:08:19,040
jerry clark and alan greenfield a little

1640
01:08:23,030 --> 01:08:20,799
participation from tim beckley we also

1641
01:08:25,590 --> 01:08:23,040
have rick hillberg our guest co-host

1642
01:08:27,269 --> 01:08:25,600
is jay randall murphy chris o'brien

1643
01:08:28,149 --> 01:08:27,279
would have loved to been here for this

1644
01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:28,159
one

1645
01:08:31,749 --> 01:08:30,159
also what's going to happen is we have

1646
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:31,759
another radio show we want you to listen

1647
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:34,000
to it's called after the power cast

1648
01:08:37,829 --> 01:08:35,679
and it's unpredictable we never know

1649
01:08:40,630 --> 01:08:37,839
what's going to happen next on that show

1650
01:08:44,749 --> 01:08:40,640
and you can only hear it if you join the

1651
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:44,759
power cast plus at plus.thepowercast.com

1652
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:46,400
plus.theparacast.com we give you the

1653
01:08:49,749 --> 01:08:48,400
commercial free version of this show and

1654
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:49,759
other goodies plus scott

1655
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:52,319
thepowercast.com

1656
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:54,560
so we have a little interaction there

1657
01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:56,640
towards the end with tim beckley

1658
01:09:01,829 --> 01:08:59,920
and jerry clark well you talk about the

1659
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:01,839
evidence well first of all if you

1660
01:09:06,789 --> 01:09:05,120
remember a lot of the early ufo cases

1661
01:09:09,110 --> 01:09:06,799
first of all the beings on board the

1662
01:09:11,349 --> 01:09:09,120
ship were very airy and in appearance or

1663
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,359
said to be so right there was a

1664
01:09:18,149 --> 01:09:13,759
connection between some of the early ufo

1665
01:09:21,269 --> 01:09:18,159
contactees and the nazi or neo-nazi

1666
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:21,279
movement some of the people who

1667
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:24,239
had contact or reported a meeting with

1668
01:09:30,149 --> 01:09:27,359
these beings said the pilots of the ufos

1669
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:30,159
or the occupants often spoke with a

1670
01:09:35,189 --> 01:09:32,319
german accent or even conversed amongst

1671
01:09:36,950 --> 01:09:35,199
themselves in german so i don't know i i

1672
01:09:38,550 --> 01:09:36,960
think it's just the the the government

1673
01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:38,560
bought all these scientists over why did

1674
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:40,000
they bring them over it was for a

1675
01:09:44,709 --> 01:09:42,000
particular reason because the the

1676
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:44,719
germans were working on their own

1677
01:09:50,070 --> 01:09:47,120
circular devices towards the end of the

1678
01:09:52,229 --> 01:09:50,080
war now there is some speculation and

1679
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:52,239
it's open to conjecture of course

1680
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:53,920
whether this information had been

1681
01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:57,199
received by them through occult or

1682
01:10:02,149 --> 01:09:59,840
channeling methods if you check the

1683
01:10:04,709 --> 01:10:02,159
history of the vril society going back

1684
01:10:06,790 --> 01:10:04,719
even to 1920 they were holding

1685
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:06,800
channeling sessions and supposedly

1686
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:08,880
receiving information on how to

1687
01:10:13,510 --> 01:10:11,600
construct a variety of disc shaped

1688
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:13,520
crafts i think some of these were

1689
01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:15,280
actually developed in the latter part of

1690
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:17,760
the the second world war and the

1691
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:19,280
government would rather have you believe

1692
01:10:22,709 --> 01:10:20,800
if you're going to believe in ufos that

1693
01:10:24,550 --> 01:10:22,719
they were extraterrestrial there is

1694
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:24,560
really little evidence that these craft

1695
01:10:29,830 --> 01:10:26,960
are extraterrestrial if you get into

1696
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:29,840
the subject for 50 years like i have

1697
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:32,159
there's either very little going on to

1698
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:34,400
prove that these things are off planet

1699
01:10:39,189 --> 01:10:36,880
if you take all the evidence at hand it

1700
01:10:41,189 --> 01:10:39,199
shows that the the objects or at least a

1701
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:41,199
lot of the experiences that people are

1702
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:44,880
having are very paranormal in in nature

1703
01:10:50,149 --> 01:10:47,040
and have nothing to do with physical

1704
01:10:53,189 --> 01:10:50,159
beings from you know some other star

1705
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,199
system jerry you want to respond yeah

1706
01:10:57,590 --> 01:10:55,679
tim i'm aware of everything you're

1707
01:10:59,830 --> 01:10:57,600
saying and virtually everything you're

1708
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:59,840
saying is is either true or at least

1709
01:11:03,669 --> 01:11:01,040
arguable

1710
01:11:05,669 --> 01:11:03,679
but i don't understand how you connect

1711
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:05,679
these things when you're trying to

1712
01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:08,560
reconstruct history you have to

1713
01:11:14,310 --> 01:11:11,280
have bridges between well jerry i know

1714
01:11:15,510 --> 01:11:14,320
history of ufos just as well as you did

1715
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:15,520
i'm talking i'm not talking about the

1716
01:11:19,669 --> 01:11:16,960
history of ufos i'm talking about

1717
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:19,679
history just history generally what

1718
01:11:25,030 --> 01:11:22,320
exactly did i say that is not part of

1719
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:25,040
history did we not bring over all these

1720
01:11:29,590 --> 01:11:27,280
nazi uh in germany

1721
01:11:31,830 --> 01:11:29,600
exactly so how do you connect these

1722
01:11:34,470 --> 01:11:31,840
things i don't see any connections i see

1723
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:36,390
where were the majors i don't see the

1724
01:11:40,310 --> 01:11:39,280
connections that you that you have maybe

1725
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:40,320
maybe you don't want to see the

1726
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:42,719
connection let's go back and forth let

1727
01:11:46,470 --> 01:11:44,800
jerry finish then tim can talk let's

1728
01:11:48,950 --> 01:11:46,480
keep it calm jerry

1729
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:48,960
the pre-history of ufology goes like

1730
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:51,360
this there was speculation about

1731
01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:54,080
extraterrestrial visitation in the 19th

1732
01:12:00,149 --> 01:11:57,120
century in fact i've written about it

1733
01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:00,159
fairly extensively showing where people

1734
01:12:05,590 --> 01:12:02,320
believe that there was evidence that

1735
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:05,600
people were coming from mars or it was

1736
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:08,719
possible to have psychic contact with

1737
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:11,520
martians channel their messages or even

1738
01:12:15,990 --> 01:12:14,400
visit their an out of body state there

1739
01:12:18,470 --> 01:12:16,000
were also claims that there were

1740
01:12:21,510 --> 01:12:18,480
physical devices that had come from

1741
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:21,520
another planet and landed on earth these

1742
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:24,400
stories are all over the 19th century

1743
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:26,719
charles thorpe picks them up charles

1744
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:28,800
ford is the first ufologist does that

1745
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:31,679
make them literally true look i'm not

1746
01:12:36,390 --> 01:12:34,000
arguing for or against the exit trust

1747
01:12:38,390 --> 01:12:36,400
hypothesis i have that's a whole other

1748
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:38,400
conversation which i don't think you

1749
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:40,880
understand my views about but i'm just

1750
01:12:44,709 --> 01:12:43,280
giving you the history the pre-history

1751
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,719
of ufos

1752
01:12:48,550 --> 01:12:46,080
the guy who

1753
01:12:51,430 --> 01:12:48,560
puts the extraterrestrial hypothesis and

1754
01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:51,440
argues it in in his first three books is

1755
01:12:57,990 --> 01:12:53,760
charles ford if you look at the

1756
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,000
newspaper coverage in the summer of 1947

1757
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:00,000
people were not talking about

1758
01:13:05,669 --> 01:13:02,640
extraterrestrial ufos they just weren't

1759
01:13:07,990 --> 01:13:05,679
thinking like that when extraterrestrial

1760
01:13:10,229 --> 01:13:08,000
ufos start getting mentioned here and

1761
01:13:13,270 --> 01:13:10,239
there in the early press coverage

1762
01:13:16,390 --> 01:13:13,280
it's almost always from members of the

1763
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:16,400
fortian society who say there was this

1764
01:13:19,990 --> 01:13:17,199
guy

1765
01:13:22,550 --> 01:13:20,000
who wrote about flying saucers before

1766
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:22,560
they were flying saucers this also

1767
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:25,280
affected the air force guys who also

1768
01:13:30,709 --> 01:13:28,080
became aware of fort and redford in fact

1769
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:30,719
fort is mentioned in some of the early

1770
01:13:35,990 --> 01:13:34,080
projects signed documents it was charles

1771
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:36,000
ford's thinking it gave these people

1772
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:38,800
this idea that maybe these aren't secret

1773
01:13:44,070 --> 01:13:41,760
naval aircraft or secret soviet aircraft

1774
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:44,080
because they have this prehistory that

1775
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:47,280
goes way back in decades maybe centuries

1776
01:13:52,149 --> 01:13:50,400
and so even the early air force guys who

1777
01:13:55,510 --> 01:13:52,159
begin to think in terms of

1778
01:13:58,709 --> 01:13:55,520
interplanetary ufos are basing their

1779
01:14:00,709 --> 01:13:58,719
ideas on what they read in fort or heard

1780
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:00,719
from people who had read for it there

1781
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:03,199
wasn't any kind of sinister

1782
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:06,159
conspiracy but that's your opinion jerry

1783
01:14:11,350 --> 01:14:09,360
it seemed like a logical conclusion that

1784
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:11,360
this is what that if they weren't from

1785
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:13,679
the soviet union or they weren't from

1786
01:14:19,110 --> 01:14:16,320
some other branch of the u.s

1787
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,120
service they had to be interplanetary

1788
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:21,440
there wasn't any kind of sinister

1789
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:24,080
machination going on well the air force

1790
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:26,719
really didn't like that kind of thinking

1791
01:14:31,189 --> 01:14:28,400
and quashed it

1792
01:14:34,229 --> 01:14:31,199
quite early on in the history of the ufo

1793
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:34,239
projects in fact project sign was

1794
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:36,880
effectively ended when its personnel

1795
01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:39,760
suggested that ufos were interplanetary

1796
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:41,679
what the air force wanted people to

1797
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,480
believe

1798
01:14:47,270 --> 01:14:44,239
was that there was nothing going on

1799
01:14:49,030 --> 01:14:47,280
except hoaxes and mistakes well the air

1800
01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:49,040
force might have wanted you to believe

1801
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:51,760
that but if you were going to believe in

1802
01:14:55,990 --> 01:14:54,000
ufos they wanted you to believe that it

1803
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:56,000
was something from outer space there's

1804
01:15:00,149 --> 01:14:58,159
no doubt about that whatsoever and you

1805
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:00,159
talk about proof for evidence now when

1806
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:02,719
these these germans were brought over

1807
01:15:06,630 --> 01:15:04,960
after the war where were they planted

1808
01:15:08,870 --> 01:15:06,640
they were all planted in the the

1809
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:08,880
southwest is that correct like around

1810
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:11,199
new mexico where were the earliest ufo

1811
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:13,840
sightings that took place new mexico

1812
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:17,600
arizona texas in the north in northwest

1813
01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:20,159
arnold oh kenneth arnold yeah yeah but

1814
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:21,360
no but

1815
01:15:31,510 --> 01:15:29,189
then there were sightings all over the

1816
01:15:33,510 --> 01:15:31,520
country yeah they were absolutely a lot

1817
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:33,520
of the good sightings that are very

1818
01:15:38,550 --> 01:15:36,159
concrete took place in that area of the

1819
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:38,560
southwest and what is the uh of course

1820
01:15:42,550 --> 01:15:40,560
the wonder people point who is the

1821
01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:42,560
roswell incident well either nothing

1822
01:15:47,350 --> 01:15:44,320
happened in roswell because it certainly

1823
01:15:49,350 --> 01:15:47,360
wasn't a mogul balloon uh or something

1824
01:15:50,950 --> 01:15:49,360
happened there was it really a spaceship

1825
01:15:53,590 --> 01:15:50,960
there's very little evidence for that

1826
01:15:55,350 --> 01:15:53,600
either i agree with that it points more

1827
01:15:57,350 --> 01:15:55,360
and more at least the work that i've

1828
01:15:59,350 --> 01:15:57,360
done in investigation that i've done

1829
01:16:01,669 --> 01:15:59,360
that a lot of these craft were built

1830
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:01,679
right here on earth now whether they are

1831
01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:03,840
the ideas originated from somewhere

1832
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:05,440
outside this planet there's a good

1833
01:16:09,270 --> 01:16:07,199
possibility of that too well yes they

1834
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:09,280
could be from various places they don't

1835
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:11,440
just have to be from you know one place

1836
01:16:16,149 --> 01:16:13,840
when we talk about a ufo we talk about

1837
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:16,159
an unidentified object

1838
01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:18,400
spirited discussion unexpectedly with

1839
01:16:22,550 --> 01:16:20,320
alan greenfield tim beckley and jerome

1840
01:16:23,590 --> 01:16:22,560
clark rick hillberg is just being a

1841
01:16:25,189 --> 01:16:23,600
gentleman

1842
01:16:27,430 --> 01:16:25,199
our guest co-host is jay randall murphy

1843
01:16:39,990 --> 01:16:27,440
i'm gene steinberg you're in the

1844
01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:43,510
thank you for listening to gcn

1845
01:16:49,669 --> 01:16:47,600
be sure to visit gcnlive.com today

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1872
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1885
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arteries high blood pressure and high

1917
01:19:56,950 --> 01:19:54,719
cholesterol levels may not be fully

1918
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:56,960
detected by you but the symptoms are

1919
01:20:01,830 --> 01:19:59,360
there loss of energy blood sugar spikes

1920
01:20:03,669 --> 01:20:01,840
and drops poor circulation and irregular

1921
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:03,679
heartbeat are just a few of these that

1922
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,760
can alert you that something is wrong

1923
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:07,920
hear how heart and body extract is

1924
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:09,760
making a difference in thousands of

1925
01:20:14,630 --> 01:20:12,239
people's lives across america my blood

1926
01:20:16,470 --> 01:20:14,640
pressure has normalized my diabetes has

1927
01:20:18,310 --> 01:20:16,480
totally improved everyone is telling me

1928
01:20:20,070 --> 01:20:18,320
now how much healthier i look and i'm

1929
01:20:21,750 --> 01:20:20,080
telling everyone how much healthy i feel

1930
01:20:23,990 --> 01:20:21,760
i recommend heart and body extract to

1931
01:20:26,470 --> 01:20:24,000
everyone anybody over 40 in the north

1932
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:26,480
american continent should be using this

1933
01:20:30,709 --> 01:20:28,480
product as a preventative to keep their

1934
01:20:34,189 --> 01:20:30,719
cardiovascular system healthy order your

1935
01:20:37,070 --> 01:20:34,199
two-month supply today by calling

1936
01:20:40,030 --> 01:20:37,080
866-295-5305 that's

1937
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:40,040
866-295-5305 or order online

1938
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:52,390
or 866-295-5305

1939
01:20:56,470 --> 01:20:54,149
this is leslie kane and i'm with the

1940
01:21:00,470 --> 01:20:56,480
coalition for freedom of information and

1941
01:21:02,950 --> 01:21:00,480
you are listening to the paracast

1942
01:21:04,870 --> 01:21:02,960
may i say something please

1943
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:04,880
you may say something please alan

1944
01:21:08,790 --> 01:21:06,480
greenfield

1945
01:21:11,669 --> 01:21:08,800
no don't be so polite as to ask

1946
01:21:13,270 --> 01:21:11,679
alan is never polite when he doesn't

1947
01:21:14,470 --> 01:21:13,280
just step right in there

1948
01:21:18,149 --> 01:21:14,480
i i try

1949
01:21:19,510 --> 01:21:18,159
i mean the last time that i saw uh jerry

1950
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:19,520
in the flesh

1951
01:21:25,830 --> 01:21:23,360
we had somewhat acrimonious debate at a

1952
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:25,840
talk that i gave in a side room

1953
01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:29,760
unadvertised at the fate magazine ufo

1954
01:21:34,790 --> 01:21:31,840
convention so i wanted to say something

1955
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:34,800
nice about jerry i have been saving it

1956
01:21:40,310 --> 01:21:37,120
in the program and that will segue

1957
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:40,320
fairly well to how i got into ufology

1958
01:21:45,590 --> 01:21:43,040
although ufology is part of a much

1959
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:45,600
broader i consider it part of

1960
01:21:51,510 --> 01:21:49,360
the paranormal universe but in any case

1961
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:51,520
the nice thing about jerry

1962
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:54,480
what was referred to earlier as you know

1963
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:56,639
corresponding by tape

1964
01:22:01,510 --> 01:21:58,560
actually the national ufo conference

1965
01:22:03,830 --> 01:22:01,520
which ran 50 years started off as a tape

1966
01:22:06,229 --> 01:22:03,840
conversation between rick and

1967
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:06,239
bob miller was it rick

1968
01:22:11,510 --> 01:22:08,719
no actually it was between you and i

1969
01:22:13,990 --> 01:22:11,520
allen back about 1963 because we

1970
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:14,000
responded and yeah but there was another

1971
01:22:19,430 --> 01:22:17,280
person in ohio that was on it but in any

1972
01:22:21,270 --> 01:22:19,440
case like yeah that's not not the

1973
01:22:23,990 --> 01:22:21,280
substance i just wanted to mention that

1974
01:22:27,110 --> 01:22:24,000
in passing it was called tape spondents

1975
01:22:29,350 --> 01:22:27,120
where uh um in science fiction circles

1976
01:22:31,030 --> 01:22:29,360
it was called round robins where you you

1977
01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:31,040
know would send it on and send it on and

1978
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:32,239
send it on

1979
01:22:37,030 --> 01:22:34,880
jerry was involved in one of those and

1980
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:37,040
he said one of those things that really

1981
01:22:43,270 --> 01:22:39,760
really stuck with me this was after like

1982
01:22:45,189 --> 01:22:43,280
two years of jim mosley calling me and

1983
01:22:46,950 --> 01:22:45,199
this was in the days when long distance

1984
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,960
calls were

1985
01:22:51,750 --> 01:22:48,480
expensive

1986
01:22:56,229 --> 01:22:51,760
and we would talk pretty much all night

1987
01:22:57,590 --> 01:22:56,239
long and mostly for from 1966 on

1988
01:23:00,070 --> 01:22:57,600
he was just

1989
01:23:02,950 --> 01:23:00,080
you've got to meet this guy john keel

1990
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:02,960
got me this guy john keel and uh during

1991
01:23:08,629 --> 01:23:05,199
our annual uh

1992
01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:08,639
new york festivities in the hilton hotel

1993
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:10,719
of where we

1994
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:13,760
got together and didn't have to get out

1995
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:16,080
into the crowd

1996
01:23:21,030 --> 01:23:18,480
mostly brought keel and then i invited

1997
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:21,040
keel to come down to atlanta to speak to

1998
01:23:25,510 --> 01:23:23,920
our group here which my father paid for

1999
01:23:26,629 --> 01:23:25,520
and

2000
01:23:28,229 --> 01:23:26,639
anyway

2001
01:23:30,790 --> 01:23:28,239
i was

2002
01:23:33,669 --> 01:23:30,800
he was a very knowledgeable person but

2003
01:23:36,790 --> 01:23:33,679
he was extremely peculiar and i remember

2004
01:23:37,750 --> 01:23:36,800
that on one of our tape spondence things

2005
01:23:40,550 --> 01:23:37,760
jerry

2006
01:23:42,709 --> 01:23:40,560
switched voices from that that what

2007
01:23:44,070 --> 01:23:42,719
you're hearing now the uh

2008
01:23:46,550 --> 01:23:44,080
i know it

2009
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:46,560
uh sort of tone to

2010
01:23:52,709 --> 01:23:50,400
mysterious sort of like keel and he said

2011
01:23:54,470 --> 01:23:52,719
if there's anybody

2012
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:54,480
in ufology

2013
01:23:58,470 --> 01:23:56,560
who's one of them

2014
01:24:00,629 --> 01:23:58,480
it's killed

2015
01:24:03,910 --> 01:24:00,639
and i thought bingo

2016
01:24:06,470 --> 01:24:03,920
yep he's one of the strangest human

2017
01:24:08,790 --> 01:24:06,480
beings i have ever run across for one

2018
01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:08,800
thing he didn't like to eat and for

2019
01:24:14,390 --> 01:24:10,560
someone like me that's you know

2020
01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:14,400
practically uh a acid eating pork it's

2021
01:24:19,430 --> 01:24:17,120
just not something that you do

2022
01:24:22,149 --> 01:24:19,440
why is this wrapped around my chair it

2023
01:24:25,830 --> 01:24:22,159
doesn't matter the point being that that

2024
01:24:28,149 --> 01:24:25,840
that comment i thought was spot on

2025
01:24:30,149 --> 01:24:28,159
i don't believe that keel was an alien

2026
01:24:31,669 --> 01:24:30,159
but i think he was the closest thing

2027
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:31,679
amongst us

2028
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:33,840
to to that of course we do have the

2029
01:24:38,990 --> 01:24:36,400
complication that

2030
01:24:41,910 --> 01:24:39,000
uh god rest their souls

2031
01:24:44,870 --> 01:24:41,920
jim and gray

2032
01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:44,880
probably are responsible for a number of

2033
01:24:49,669 --> 01:24:47,280
the alls that we

2034
01:24:51,830 --> 01:24:49,679
that we see in the movie the mothman

2035
01:24:53,510 --> 01:24:51,840
prophecies but uh

2036
01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:53,520
because they like to do that they did it

2037
01:24:57,030 --> 01:24:55,760
to me they did it to lots of people

2038
01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:57,040
but

2039
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:00,719
kiel

2040
01:25:04,870 --> 01:25:02,480
ate it up however

2041
01:25:07,110 --> 01:25:04,880
a lot of genuine stuff and keel is

2042
01:25:10,310 --> 01:25:07,120
responsible for a lot of important

2043
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:10,320
insights but he was a very very strange

2044
01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:11,520
duck

2045
01:25:17,350 --> 01:25:14,960
i wrote a piece about uh keel when the

2046
01:25:19,590 --> 01:25:17,360
operation trojan horse was republished a

2047
01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:19,600
couple of years ago at a peace and 40 in

2048
01:25:22,950 --> 01:25:21,280
times on the subject

2049
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:22,960
and i quoted

2050
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:25,920
a woman's description which keel quotes

2051
01:25:29,510 --> 01:25:27,360
of her interaction with

2052
01:25:31,750 --> 01:25:29,520
ultra-terrestrials

2053
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:31,760
and i point out that

2054
01:25:35,750 --> 01:25:33,920
the description of ultra-terrestrials

2055
01:25:38,229 --> 01:25:35,760
and their personalities

2056
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:38,239
sounded exactly like keel

2057
01:25:41,990 --> 01:25:40,560
it was like this woman was describing

2058
01:25:43,669 --> 01:25:42,000
keel himself

2059
01:25:45,910 --> 01:25:43,679
yeah now i certainly don't believe that

2060
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:45,920
kiel was an ultra terrestrial nor door

2061
01:25:50,310 --> 01:25:47,760
or an alien but

2062
01:25:52,550 --> 01:25:50,320
nonetheless what alan says i

2063
01:25:54,470 --> 01:25:52,560
yeah i i completely agree with him i

2064
01:25:56,470 --> 01:25:54,480
think he was a very strange guy

2065
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:56,480
well actually i'm agreeing with you i'm

2066
01:26:01,110 --> 01:25:58,560
just remembering that tape spontaneous

2067
01:26:03,510 --> 01:26:01,120
that was one of those magic moments

2068
01:26:05,510 --> 01:26:03,520
which speaking of magic moments you want

2069
01:26:07,830 --> 01:26:05,520
to hear how i got into ufology right

2070
01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:07,840
gene right right right let's do it

2071
01:26:12,310 --> 01:26:09,760
quickly because we have to get into the

2072
01:26:14,950 --> 01:26:12,320
2000 other topics before we go

2073
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:14,960
2 000 okay well i've got the time have

2074
01:26:19,350 --> 01:26:17,040
you got the beer

2075
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:19,360
by the way i do read beckley's books the

2076
01:26:23,590 --> 01:26:21,360
ones he sends me for free but i read

2077
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:23,600
them all i read them all cover to cover

2078
01:26:26,790 --> 01:26:24,480
even

2079
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:26,800
they are very well worth reading yes

2080
01:26:33,030 --> 01:26:27,760
they are

2081
01:26:35,270 --> 01:26:33,040
and uh interesting and wild and very

2082
01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:35,280
close to the gray barker uh type of

2083
01:26:41,030 --> 01:26:38,239
thing that that i knew and loved and

2084
01:26:44,870 --> 01:26:41,040
miss very much

2085
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:44,880
i think i have genetic ufology in my

2086
01:26:49,270 --> 01:26:46,719
bloodstream because you know you only

2087
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:49,280
remember from early childhood things

2088
01:26:52,790 --> 01:26:51,520
that sort of so to speak perk up your

2089
01:26:56,149 --> 01:26:52,800
ears

2090
01:26:59,030 --> 01:26:56,159
and my family went to miami every year

2091
01:27:00,790 --> 01:26:59,040
for the month of july my father was

2092
01:27:03,910 --> 01:27:00,800
big on doing that he'd

2093
01:27:06,149 --> 01:27:03,920
stay for a week come back to augusta in

2094
01:27:07,590 --> 01:27:06,159
those days and and work for two weeks

2095
01:27:08,470 --> 01:27:07,600
and then come back and spend another

2096
01:27:11,350 --> 01:27:08,480
week

2097
01:27:14,070 --> 01:27:11,360
in miami so every july i spent in miami

2098
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:14,080
and at one point in july of 1952 the

2099
01:27:19,590 --> 01:27:15,840
only reason i know is

2100
01:27:23,189 --> 01:27:19,600
retro fitting it because he said

2101
01:27:25,910 --> 01:27:23,199
wow flying saucers flew over

2102
01:27:26,950 --> 01:27:25,920
the uh restricted airspace in washington

2103
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:26,960
dc

2104
01:27:30,790 --> 01:27:29,600
and i perked up like that i mean this is

2105
01:27:34,149 --> 01:27:30,800
you know i was

2106
01:27:35,990 --> 01:27:34,159
what five years old maybe six maybe

2107
01:27:38,470 --> 01:27:36,000
uh it was just

2108
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:38,480
why would i even care you know there are

2109
01:27:44,310 --> 01:27:41,199
many other things that my folks would

2110
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:44,320
discuss that that might have been

2111
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:46,880
but from that point on i was you know

2112
01:27:51,990 --> 01:27:49,920
following the story the ongoing

2113
01:27:54,390 --> 01:27:52,000
development of this sort of thing

2114
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:54,400
and then in 1960

2115
01:28:01,430 --> 01:27:57,840
for reasons that i can't really remember

2116
01:28:03,990 --> 01:28:01,440
i joined nycap and at that time they had

2117
01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:04,000
something called associate member and i

2118
01:28:08,070 --> 01:28:07,120
took it literally because i was a kid

2119
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:08,080
and then

2120
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:08,880
i

2121
01:28:17,510 --> 01:28:15,840
was

2122
01:28:20,790 --> 01:28:17,520
a movement

2123
01:28:22,709 --> 01:28:20,800
could have existed without that section

2124
01:28:25,750 --> 01:28:22,719
devoted to free

2125
01:28:28,550 --> 01:28:25,760
publicity absolutely you got it

2126
01:28:31,669 --> 01:28:28,560
yeah so that's how i met kim that's how

2127
01:28:34,070 --> 01:28:31,679
i met gene that's uh how i met

2128
01:28:36,229 --> 01:28:34,080
most of the people many of which left

2129
01:28:39,189 --> 01:28:36,239
ufology but uh you know that were

2130
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:39,199
involved at that point and a few of us

2131
01:28:43,350 --> 01:28:41,360
are still involved and will be no doubt

2132
01:28:45,110 --> 01:28:43,360
ten years from now

2133
01:28:46,709 --> 01:28:45,120
pushing it

2134
01:28:48,470 --> 01:28:46,719
god willing

2135
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:48,480
inshallah

2136
01:28:52,229 --> 01:28:50,400
all right i want to move to some things

2137
01:28:54,790 --> 01:28:52,239
here because we're well past half of the

2138
01:28:57,430 --> 01:28:54,800
show we had a debate about the early

2139
01:28:59,350 --> 01:28:57,440
days of ufology and the impact kehoe

2140
01:29:00,950 --> 01:28:59,360
rupelt

2141
01:29:02,310 --> 01:29:00,960
government

2142
01:29:04,470 --> 01:29:02,320
interest

2143
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:04,480
in ufos

2144
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:06,800
communism and everything else and i

2145
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,639
wanted to look at what people

2146
01:29:12,870 --> 01:29:10,400
thought about it because

2147
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:12,880
we all grew up with the same thought

2148
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:15,199
because it was influenced by major kehoe

2149
01:29:19,990 --> 01:29:17,840
it was influenced by

2150
01:29:21,669 --> 01:29:20,000
captain rupelt even if

2151
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:21,679
he tried to run away from it for those

2152
01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:24,480
final three chapters under discussion

2153
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:26,560
and that was that ufos

2154
01:29:30,229 --> 01:29:28,320
were visitors from other planets of

2155
01:29:32,790 --> 01:29:30,239
course in the 50s we were talking about

2156
01:29:34,709 --> 01:29:32,800
mars at some point though

2157
01:29:35,910 --> 01:29:34,719
i think we started moving in other

2158
01:29:37,910 --> 01:29:35,920
directions

2159
01:29:39,910 --> 01:29:37,920
and i'm going to ask alan to be brief

2160
01:29:42,310 --> 01:29:39,920
about this which our listeners know from

2161
01:29:44,390 --> 01:29:42,320
listening to him on past episodes is

2162
01:29:45,910 --> 01:29:44,400
almost an impossibility

2163
01:29:48,149 --> 01:29:45,920
but i'm going to ask alan greenfield to

2164
01:29:50,790 --> 01:29:48,159
be brief where he started

2165
01:29:53,110 --> 01:29:50,800
looking at ufos as something

2166
01:29:54,790 --> 01:29:53,120
more than spaceships something other

2167
01:29:56,390 --> 01:29:54,800
than spaceships

2168
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,400
something more involved and i'm going to

2169
01:30:00,390 --> 01:29:58,560
look at the evolution of the viewpoints

2170
01:30:01,910 --> 01:30:00,400
from the rest of our panel

2171
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:01,920
and therefore i'm going to give alan the

2172
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:04,080
opportunity to say the power cast so we

2173
01:30:08,790 --> 01:30:07,280
have our special team ufologist episode

2174
01:30:10,550 --> 01:30:08,800
and you can see here

2175
01:30:12,310 --> 01:30:10,560
where we get these guys together in one

2176
01:30:15,270 --> 01:30:12,320
room even virtually

2177
01:30:16,550 --> 01:30:15,280
the discussion can take many twists and

2178
01:30:19,030 --> 01:30:16,560
turns

2179
01:30:21,510 --> 01:30:19,040
alan greenfield jerry clark

2180
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:21,520
rick hillberg tim beckley

2181
01:30:25,669 --> 01:30:23,920
jay randall murphy who has been

2182
01:30:27,990 --> 01:30:25,679
the fly on the wall

2183
01:30:38,229 --> 01:30:28,000
to kind of keep things settled down

2184
01:30:38,239 --> 01:30:42,950
thank you for listening to gcn

2185
01:30:47,430 --> 01:30:43,790
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2186
01:30:52,709 --> 01:30:50,229
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this is robert hastings author of ufos

2285
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and nukes and you're listening to the

2286
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paracast the gold standard of paranormal

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okay

2288
01:35:18,070 --> 01:35:15,280
now i think when i started looking at

2289
01:35:20,870 --> 01:35:18,080
other possibilities for ufos is when you

2290
01:35:22,390 --> 01:35:20,880
and i alan greenfield had that long

2291
01:35:24,310 --> 01:35:22,400
discussion

2292
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:24,320
at a hotel room

2293
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:25,920
in midtown

2294
01:35:30,709 --> 01:35:28,400
in the 1960s that one

2295
01:35:32,870 --> 01:35:30,719
was at the hilton because i we always

2296
01:35:34,629 --> 01:35:32,880
stayed at the hilton i'm going to reveal

2297
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:34,639
something about that my parents were

2298
01:35:39,590 --> 01:35:37,760
always in the next room i never went to

2299
01:35:42,310 --> 01:35:39,600
new york in the 60s that my parents

2300
01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:42,320
didn't go along but i i had the liberal

2301
01:35:48,470 --> 01:35:45,520
upbringing and they basically used it as

2302
01:35:51,350 --> 01:35:48,480
an excuse to do new york and

2303
01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:51,360
i did new york in the fashion that i did

2304
01:35:55,430 --> 01:35:52,560
it anyway

2305
01:35:58,070 --> 01:35:55,440
yes we had a discussion and i think

2306
01:36:00,629 --> 01:35:58,080
having spent at that point six years in

2307
01:36:01,830 --> 01:36:00,639
ufology and chasing

2308
01:36:03,590 --> 01:36:01,840
after

2309
01:36:06,390 --> 01:36:03,600
the notion of

2310
01:36:08,790 --> 01:36:06,400
uh spaceships from another planet first

2311
01:36:12,790 --> 01:36:08,800
it was mars then it was some other solar

2312
01:36:16,070 --> 01:36:12,800
system i have even heard the sort of

2313
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:16,080
truly ignorant from other galaxies do

2314
01:36:22,149 --> 01:36:18,719
these people actually understand the

2315
01:36:24,310 --> 01:36:22,159
distances between galaxies anyway so

2316
01:36:27,350 --> 01:36:24,320
uh we'll leave that to the late carl

2317
01:36:30,870 --> 01:36:27,360
sagan floating above us even now in one

2318
01:36:33,189 --> 01:36:30,880
sense or another uh we concluded that

2319
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:33,199
there had to be another way to look at

2320
01:36:36,149 --> 01:36:34,400
this

2321
01:36:37,830 --> 01:36:36,159
and i said well

2322
01:36:40,229 --> 01:36:37,840
i didn't know anything about quantum

2323
01:36:42,390 --> 01:36:40,239
physics at that point because i was just

2324
01:36:44,149 --> 01:36:42,400
out of high school and had

2325
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,159
just started any kind of higher

2326
01:36:49,189 --> 01:36:46,080
education

2327
01:36:51,510 --> 01:36:49,199
i said maybe there are other dimensions

2328
01:36:53,510 --> 01:36:51,520
and then the next year i started a thing

2329
01:36:56,070 --> 01:36:53,520
called alternate horizons newsletter

2330
01:36:58,470 --> 01:36:56,080
which had like a two-year run

2331
01:37:01,030 --> 01:36:58,480
i like all the newsletters that you as

2332
01:37:02,629 --> 01:37:01,040
you pointed out it was strictly you know

2333
01:37:05,750 --> 01:37:02,639
it reached

2334
01:37:08,070 --> 01:37:05,760
200 people maybe at its peak and you had

2335
01:37:09,910 --> 01:37:08,080
to staple it and fold it of course i

2336
01:37:12,629 --> 01:37:09,920
didn't do my own printing it got done at

2337
01:37:14,149 --> 01:37:12,639
my father's office at night

2338
01:37:16,870 --> 01:37:14,159
but it

2339
01:37:18,590 --> 01:37:16,880
sort of set the tone that i

2340
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:18,600
used later in a thing called the

2341
01:37:23,510 --> 01:37:21,440
paraufologist which had a

2342
01:37:25,990 --> 01:37:23,520
long run although they were it was

2343
01:37:28,790 --> 01:37:26,000
infrequent and sort of the last of the

2344
01:37:29,750 --> 01:37:28,800
ufo zines that i did

2345
01:37:32,229 --> 01:37:29,760
to

2346
01:37:34,870 --> 01:37:32,239
discuss things in terms other than the

2347
01:37:36,470 --> 01:37:34,880
nuts and bolts approach i used a couple

2348
01:37:38,149 --> 01:37:36,480
of

2349
01:37:41,750 --> 01:37:38,159
mostly

2350
01:37:45,350 --> 01:37:41,760
reasons not to associate

2351
01:37:46,629 --> 01:37:45,360
ufos with outer space because they're

2352
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:46,639
not seen

2353
01:37:52,390 --> 01:37:49,520
pretty much in outer space they're seen

2354
01:37:55,430 --> 01:37:52,400
here i would say that they've always

2355
01:37:58,709 --> 01:37:55,440
been seen here some version of

2356
01:38:00,629 --> 01:37:58,719
mysterious things in the sky mysterious

2357
01:38:02,790 --> 01:38:00,639
sightings of

2358
01:38:04,149 --> 01:38:02,800
well we'll just say beings and that

2359
01:38:07,270 --> 01:38:04,159
covers a whole

2360
01:38:09,270 --> 01:38:07,280
variety of things as long as the human

2361
01:38:13,030 --> 01:38:09,280
beings have been recording history or

2362
01:38:15,189 --> 01:38:13,040
scratching uh pictures on on walls in

2363
01:38:17,270 --> 01:38:15,199
what i like to call paleo ufology

2364
01:38:19,910 --> 01:38:17,280
because i hate the term ancient aliens

2365
01:38:21,510 --> 01:38:19,920
for a large variety of reasons

2366
01:38:23,510 --> 01:38:21,520
including my appearance on the program

2367
01:38:27,350 --> 01:38:23,520
by the way i met von braun

2368
01:38:29,669 --> 01:38:27,360
once which was for a jewish guy

2369
01:38:33,270 --> 01:38:29,679
difficult because i knew his background

2370
01:38:35,189 --> 01:38:33,280
but be that as it may i think that the

2371
01:38:36,629 --> 01:38:35,199
evidence

2372
01:38:39,270 --> 01:38:36,639
for

2373
01:38:40,950 --> 01:38:39,280
being from some other world

2374
01:38:42,470 --> 01:38:40,960
meaning another planet

2375
01:38:44,629 --> 01:38:42,480
was never there

2376
01:38:47,669 --> 01:38:44,639
there was no reason they weren't seen

2377
01:38:52,149 --> 01:38:47,679
coming from point a somewhere out there

2378
01:38:54,390 --> 01:38:52,159
to point b here they were seen here

2379
01:38:56,390 --> 01:38:54,400
and there's an interesting psychological

2380
01:38:59,510 --> 01:38:56,400
question there if you don't assume that

2381
01:39:01,350 --> 01:38:59,520
it was something that was planted or or

2382
01:39:04,229 --> 01:39:01,360
i think it was hyped but i don't think

2383
01:39:07,189 --> 01:39:04,239
it was planted that why would people

2384
01:39:09,990 --> 01:39:07,199
go for that particular solution

2385
01:39:12,470 --> 01:39:10,000
i understand that i read the book of the

2386
01:39:14,870 --> 01:39:12,480
damned about charles fort uh

2387
01:39:16,149 --> 01:39:14,880
way way back when i was a teenager but

2388
01:39:17,030 --> 01:39:16,159
uh

2389
01:39:19,270 --> 01:39:17,040
ford

2390
01:39:22,149 --> 01:39:19,280
was very clear that he was kidding

2391
01:39:24,390 --> 01:39:22,159
around and he would

2392
01:39:26,629 --> 01:39:24,400
document real events

2393
01:39:28,310 --> 01:39:26,639
and then he would make up something that

2394
01:39:31,510 --> 01:39:28,320
was meant to be

2395
01:39:33,189 --> 01:39:31,520
funny tongue-in-cheek about

2396
01:39:35,590 --> 01:39:33,199
what accounts for

2397
01:39:37,109 --> 01:39:35,600
frogs falling out of the sky or whatever

2398
01:39:39,109 --> 01:39:37,119
and uh

2399
01:39:44,149 --> 01:39:39,119
if you read it it's

2400
01:39:46,390 --> 01:39:44,159
it's clearly satire and i don't know

2401
01:39:49,109 --> 01:39:46,400
never having really been a a member of

2402
01:39:51,590 --> 01:39:49,119
any fortian group i spoke to one of the

2403
01:39:53,830 --> 01:39:51,600
fortian groups in dc the week that

2404
01:39:55,669 --> 01:39:53,840
richard nixon resigned i remember that

2405
01:39:58,229 --> 01:39:55,679
very well but

2406
01:39:59,510 --> 01:39:58,239
because it was in dc um

2407
01:40:03,030 --> 01:39:59,520
but

2408
01:40:05,910 --> 01:40:03,040
if if fordians took fort literally

2409
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:05,920
on those theories that's beyond me on

2410
01:40:11,189 --> 01:40:08,400
the other hand borderlands sciences was

2411
01:40:12,790 --> 01:40:11,199
talking about visitations from

2412
01:40:14,590 --> 01:40:12,800
otherwear

2413
01:40:17,830 --> 01:40:14,600
as early as

2414
01:40:19,830 --> 01:40:17,840
1945 if i'm not mistaken and mead lane

2415
01:40:21,510 --> 01:40:19,840
who is the founding

2416
01:40:24,390 --> 01:40:21,520
head of that

2417
01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:24,400
long-running organization still around

2418
01:40:27,830 --> 01:40:25,760
was

2419
01:40:30,550 --> 01:40:27,840
both an occult initiate which is

2420
01:40:32,870 --> 01:40:30,560
something that i have an interest in and

2421
01:40:34,149 --> 01:40:32,880
more than an interest actually

2422
01:40:36,790 --> 01:40:34,159
and

2423
01:40:39,510 --> 01:40:36,800
what you might today call a ufologist uh

2424
01:40:42,350 --> 01:40:39,520
um and uh

2425
01:40:45,590 --> 01:40:42,360
i i think that there probably have been

2426
01:40:49,430 --> 01:40:45,600
speculations of that sort um

2427
01:40:53,189 --> 01:40:49,440
um going back to the the dawn of history

2428
01:40:55,750 --> 01:40:53,199
or pre-history um we even have what is

2429
01:40:58,070 --> 01:40:55,760
that line in sereno de bergerac where

2430
01:41:01,109 --> 01:40:58,080
when in doubt he jumps up and down and

2431
01:41:02,950 --> 01:41:01,119
says i've just landed from the moon i am

2432
01:41:06,149 --> 01:41:02,960
a moon person um

2433
01:41:07,350 --> 01:41:06,159
you know that the idea has

2434
01:41:11,149 --> 01:41:07,360
is sort of

2435
01:41:13,669 --> 01:41:11,159
uh perennial but it isn't based on any

2436
01:41:14,790 --> 01:41:13,679
observations whatsoever

2437
01:41:17,350 --> 01:41:14,800
so

2438
01:41:20,790 --> 01:41:17,360
i began to move towards

2439
01:41:22,870 --> 01:41:20,800
you know looking for an alternate and

2440
01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:22,880
then i encountered the mini world's

2441
01:41:27,750 --> 01:41:24,800
interpretation of quantum mechanics and

2442
01:41:29,350 --> 01:41:27,760
that became my touchstone for those

2443
01:41:33,669 --> 01:41:29,360
people who read my

2444
01:41:34,950 --> 01:41:33,679
daily one would say compulsive blogging

2445
01:41:38,070 --> 01:41:34,960
and

2446
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:38,080
i think that that probably accounts not

2447
01:41:43,030 --> 01:41:40,400
only for ufos

2448
01:41:45,669 --> 01:41:43,040
but for a whole variety of things that

2449
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:45,679
for some reason are kept in

2450
01:41:49,350 --> 01:41:47,600
separate pockets which are very

2451
01:41:50,790 --> 01:41:49,360
resistant to ever being considered

2452
01:41:54,669 --> 01:41:50,800
together

2453
01:41:56,470 --> 01:41:54,679
my model for how to deal with it is

2454
01:41:59,270 --> 01:41:56,480
parapsychology

2455
01:42:00,310 --> 01:41:59,280
at least they try to be scientific about

2456
01:42:02,950 --> 01:42:00,320
it

2457
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:02,960
i don't know

2458
01:42:07,590 --> 01:42:05,520
that i have the correct idea on this but

2459
01:42:09,750 --> 01:42:07,600
i suspect i do and i do

2460
01:42:11,189 --> 01:42:09,760
rick will confirm this i'm sure maybe

2461
01:42:13,590 --> 01:42:11,199
tim as well

2462
01:42:16,629 --> 01:42:13,600
that when we had our 50th anniversary

2463
01:42:19,510 --> 01:42:16,639
reunion of the people who did the

2464
01:42:22,310 --> 01:42:19,520
national ufo conference i was surprised

2465
01:42:25,830 --> 01:42:22,320
that there were no eth

2466
01:42:28,310 --> 01:42:25,840
proponents left among you know us

2467
01:42:30,790 --> 01:42:28,320
survivors from from that period

2468
01:42:33,590 --> 01:42:30,800
everybody had had moved towards some

2469
01:42:35,910 --> 01:42:33,600
version of an alternate reality

2470
01:42:38,790 --> 01:42:35,920
view of where

2471
01:42:41,510 --> 01:42:38,800
they come from and how to account for a

2472
01:42:44,149 --> 01:42:41,520
wide variety of things of course the the

2473
01:42:46,550 --> 01:42:44,159
speaker from the local ufo group

2474
01:42:49,109 --> 01:42:46,560
a mufon affiliate if i'm not mistaken

2475
01:42:50,950 --> 01:42:49,119
rick if you correct me he was you know

2476
01:42:56,550 --> 01:42:50,960
pretty much doing

2477
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:56,560
uh yield nuts and bolts eth and uh

2478
01:43:00,229 --> 01:42:58,400
he's had some pretty wild experiences

2479
01:43:01,990 --> 01:43:00,239
though we've had him on our show

2480
01:43:03,270 --> 01:43:02,000
exploring the bazaar and he's he's got

2481
01:43:05,270 --> 01:43:03,280
some stuff that

2482
01:43:06,629 --> 01:43:05,280
are pretty paranormal in nature with

2483
01:43:08,790 --> 01:43:06,639
aliens and

2484
01:43:11,669 --> 01:43:08,800
uh you know not just physical

2485
01:43:14,470 --> 01:43:11,679
uh crap from outer space

2486
01:43:17,030 --> 01:43:14,480
well i mean i i i don't know the man so

2487
01:43:20,149 --> 01:43:17,040
yeah rick could speak to that better but

2488
01:43:22,390 --> 01:43:20,159
uh people often if they're involved in

2489
01:43:25,350 --> 01:43:22,400
something like mufon

2490
01:43:27,510 --> 01:43:25,360
will become nuts and bolts when they're

2491
01:43:30,310 --> 01:43:27,520
speaking as if there were nothing else

2492
01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:30,320
that was respectable and respectability

2493
01:43:35,270 --> 01:43:33,600
is not what ufology or science should

2494
01:43:39,109 --> 01:43:35,280
ever be about

2495
01:43:41,510 --> 01:43:39,119
it's always in my opinion something that

2496
01:43:43,350 --> 01:43:41,520
tries to venture beyond what we know now

2497
01:43:45,990 --> 01:43:43,360
or think we know now

2498
01:43:46,950 --> 01:43:46,000
and what might be and then trying to

2499
01:43:50,790 --> 01:43:46,960
find

2500
01:43:52,390 --> 01:43:50,800
evidence that confirms or disconfirms it

2501
01:43:53,830 --> 01:43:52,400
you know what i want to hear from rick

2502
01:43:55,830 --> 01:43:53,840
hillberg next he hasn't had a lot of

2503
01:43:57,510 --> 01:43:55,840
participation also let me get some

2504
01:43:58,390 --> 01:43:57,520
comments from randall and we'll get into

2505
01:44:00,950 --> 01:43:58,400
the

2506
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:00,960
evolution of thinking from jerry clark

2507
01:44:04,790 --> 01:44:03,440
but now rick we have just a few seconds

2508
01:44:06,550 --> 01:44:04,800
left in this segment we'll go on with

2509
01:44:09,109 --> 01:44:06,560
the next one

2510
01:44:11,270 --> 01:44:09,119
since alan is deferring to you there why

2511
01:44:13,750 --> 01:44:11,280
don't you pick up on it and then we'll

2512
01:44:14,629 --> 01:44:13,760
make this a two-part answer go ahead

2513
01:44:16,950 --> 01:44:14,639
well

2514
01:44:19,030 --> 01:44:16,960
regarding you know the nuts and bolts

2515
01:44:21,590 --> 01:44:19,040
people and mufon and what and i think

2516
01:44:23,350 --> 01:44:21,600
that's where we're going right now

2517
01:44:26,310 --> 01:44:23,360
i think view fund

2518
01:44:28,470 --> 01:44:26,320
as an organization has evolved a great

2519
01:44:30,950 --> 01:44:28,480
deal over the past few years at one time

2520
01:44:32,470 --> 01:44:30,960
it was you know purely nuts and bolts

2521
01:44:34,870 --> 01:44:32,480
but if you look at some of these

2522
01:44:37,430 --> 01:44:34,880
symposiums that they've you know put on

2523
01:44:39,030 --> 01:44:37,440
in the past few years there's all sorts

2524
01:44:40,310 --> 01:44:39,040
of you know

2525
01:44:42,310 --> 01:44:40,320
other

2526
01:44:46,149 --> 01:44:42,320
things creeping in and not only

2527
01:44:47,510 --> 01:44:46,159
paranormal subjects but like i think the

2528
01:44:50,709 --> 01:44:47,520
the one of the

2529
01:44:53,590 --> 01:44:50,719
topics at this past uh yvonne convention

2530
01:44:55,109 --> 01:44:53,600
was the secret space fleet

2531
01:44:57,189 --> 01:44:55,119
you know what we're going to break there

2532
01:44:59,350 --> 01:44:57,199
because we've covered that extensively

2533
01:45:01,189 --> 01:44:59,360
on the show and neighbors on this

2534
01:45:04,070 --> 01:45:01,199
weekend's edition of after the power

2535
01:45:06,790 --> 01:45:04,080
cast will be featuring more discussion

2536
01:45:09,510 --> 01:45:06,800
from me jay randall murphy allen

2537
01:45:11,350 --> 01:45:09,520
greenfield and jerome clark you have to

2538
01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:11,360
be a member of the power cast plus to

2539
01:45:16,870 --> 01:45:13,920
hear it we've got rick hillberg we've

2540
01:45:19,350 --> 01:45:16,880
got jerome clark allen greenfield

2541
01:45:28,950 --> 01:45:19,360
tim beckley randall murphy

2542
01:45:33,070 --> 01:45:32,229
thank you for listening to gcn

2543
01:45:37,430 --> 01:45:33,080
visit

2544
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we also have swag you know we have all

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these exclusive power cast things that

2546
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2547
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so different items and entails t-shirts

2548
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2549
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2550
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2551
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jackets and stuff like that for men and

2552
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women we have a power cast aluminum

2553
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water bottle all this stuff you go to

2554
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store dot the powercast.com

2555
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store.thepowercast.com what makes it

2556
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special is that the items are the best

2557
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quality you know great t-shirts fabrics

2558
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and they have our official logo on them

2559
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that's what makes them special in

2560
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multiple sizes and colors we even have

2561
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stuff for children stuff for women stuff

2562
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for men we have all sorts of sizes like

2563
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small up to x large a lot of good stuff

2564
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that's the swag from the power cast if

2565
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2566
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store.thepowercast.com stop by and take

2567
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are you one of the 15 million men who

2568
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suffer from an enlarged prostate if your

2569
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2570
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2571
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2572
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2576
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2580
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2581
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2584
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2589
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2590
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2591
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2592
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2593
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2594
01:47:36,629 --> 01:47:34,840
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2595
01:47:43,630 --> 01:47:36,639
procoincurrency.net deadline for 10 cent

2596
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[Applause]

2597
01:47:53,109 --> 01:47:49,440
welcome back to the paracast the gold

2598
01:47:54,390 --> 01:47:53,119
standard of paranormal radio

2599
01:47:57,700 --> 01:47:54,400
and now

2600
01:48:01,270 --> 01:47:57,710
here's gene steinberg

2601
01:48:05,750 --> 01:48:03,030
rick hillberg was talking briefly about

2602
01:48:08,070 --> 01:48:05,760
how mufon has turned we've covered that

2603
01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:08,080
rather extensively i called the downfall

2604
01:48:13,270 --> 01:48:10,639
of mufon and let's get past them let's

2605
01:48:15,669 --> 01:48:13,280
pretend for a while okay that there is

2606
01:48:17,109 --> 01:48:15,679
no move on how is your thinking about

2607
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:17,119
ufos

2608
01:48:20,870 --> 01:48:18,800
evolved over the years

2609
01:48:23,109 --> 01:48:20,880
well my thinking basically changed about

2610
01:48:25,830 --> 01:48:23,119
the year 1970 for a lot of the same

2611
01:48:30,709 --> 01:48:25,840
reasons that allen's and yours probably

2612
01:48:33,669 --> 01:48:30,719
has changed i came to realize that ufos

2613
01:48:36,310 --> 01:48:33,679
go so far back into history and and so

2614
01:48:38,310 --> 01:48:36,320
many forms it almost seems as if they

2615
01:48:40,470 --> 01:48:38,320
are something that has been with us you

2616
01:48:42,870 --> 01:48:40,480
know since time immemorial they've

2617
01:48:45,270 --> 01:48:42,880
always been a part of our environment

2618
01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:45,280
uh whether they are some sort of

2619
01:48:49,830 --> 01:48:47,920
being or who knows you know

2620
01:48:52,070 --> 01:48:49,840
whatever they are alan made a great

2621
01:48:54,229 --> 01:48:52,080
point you know no one ever sees a the

2622
01:48:56,070 --> 01:48:54,239
mothership from venus roaring in from

2623
01:48:59,430 --> 01:48:56,080
outer space we're always seeing right

2624
01:49:02,709 --> 01:48:59,440
here that's that's the clue and so many

2625
01:49:07,109 --> 01:49:02,719
of the motifs that you find in classic

2626
01:49:09,510 --> 01:49:07,119
ufo cases fairy war etc etc all kind of

2627
01:49:12,149 --> 01:49:09,520
dovetail together that we have some sort

2628
01:49:14,709 --> 01:49:12,159
of paranormal activity going on here

2629
01:49:16,709 --> 01:49:14,719
some sort of elemental beings that maybe

2630
01:49:19,350 --> 01:49:16,719
are sharing you know the the earth with

2631
01:49:21,910 --> 01:49:19,360
us that's basically my thinking today

2632
01:49:24,310 --> 01:49:21,920
randall has been very quiet listening

2633
01:49:26,709 --> 01:49:24,320
learning from his elders

2634
01:49:29,430 --> 01:49:26,719
learning about what the old fogeys have

2635
01:49:31,109 --> 01:49:29,440
to think about ufos and such a couple of

2636
01:49:31,990 --> 01:49:31,119
questions in our forum

2637
01:49:34,229 --> 01:49:32,000
of

2638
01:49:36,229 --> 01:49:34,239
jerry clark why don't you ask those now

2639
01:49:37,590 --> 01:49:36,239
yeah here we've got one

2640
01:49:40,229 --> 01:49:37,600
here for jerry

2641
01:49:43,189 --> 01:49:40,239
one here from william strathman regular

2642
01:49:45,990 --> 01:49:43,199
contributor on the forums and he's

2643
01:49:48,870 --> 01:49:46,000
asking jerry if he plans on making the

2644
01:49:50,870 --> 01:49:48,880
encyclopedia available in electronic

2645
01:49:52,790 --> 01:49:50,880
format as an e-book

2646
01:49:54,310 --> 01:49:52,800
and another question

2647
01:49:56,470 --> 01:49:54,320
if he's considered

2648
01:49:59,030 --> 01:49:56,480
an online subscription site for the

2649
01:50:00,550 --> 01:49:59,040
encyclopedia so that subscribers from

2650
01:50:03,430 --> 01:50:00,560
around the world might be able to read

2651
01:50:05,750 --> 01:50:03,440
and comment on it article by article

2652
01:50:07,350 --> 01:50:05,760
well i'm really honestly sincerely

2653
01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:07,360
flattered by

2654
01:50:11,030 --> 01:50:08,800
those questions

2655
01:50:12,790 --> 01:50:11,040
the simple fact of the matter is that i

2656
01:50:15,750 --> 01:50:12,800
don't own the copyright on the

2657
01:50:17,030 --> 01:50:15,760
encyclopedia if you look at it it's

2658
01:50:19,910 --> 01:50:17,040
owned by

2659
01:50:22,629 --> 01:50:19,920
the publisher omnigraphics which is or

2660
01:50:25,109 --> 01:50:22,639
was a reference publisher reference

2661
01:50:26,709 --> 01:50:25,119
publishing has been completely decimated

2662
01:50:29,189 --> 01:50:26,719
like so many other things by the

2663
01:50:31,750 --> 01:50:29,199
internet and i'm not even sure the books

2664
01:50:34,550 --> 01:50:31,760
are still in print some years ago i was

2665
01:50:37,669 --> 01:50:34,560
approached by a university press

2666
01:50:39,510 --> 01:50:37,679
to have the books publish an affordable

2667
01:50:42,229 --> 01:50:39,520
trade paperback versions by this

2668
01:50:44,229 --> 01:50:42,239
university press and so i went to my

2669
01:50:46,709 --> 01:50:44,239
publisher which still

2670
01:50:48,390 --> 01:50:46,719
at least then still existed in some

2671
01:50:50,390 --> 01:50:48,400
skeletal form

2672
01:50:51,669 --> 01:50:50,400
and i couldn't get anywhere with them

2673
01:50:53,990 --> 01:50:51,679
and i just couldn't get a straight

2674
01:50:56,709 --> 01:50:54,000
answer about anything and the experience

2675
01:50:58,870 --> 01:50:56,719
was so dispiriting because i would like

2676
01:51:01,189 --> 01:50:58,880
to have the encyclopedia

2677
01:51:03,669 --> 01:51:01,199
available in affordable additions to

2678
01:51:06,149 --> 01:51:03,679
anybody who's interested in them but i

2679
01:51:07,510 --> 01:51:06,159
just don't know what to do i just i'm

2680
01:51:09,910 --> 01:51:07,520
afraid that i'm going to have to say

2681
01:51:11,830 --> 01:51:09,920
that no there are no plans like that

2682
01:51:13,990 --> 01:51:11,840
although both of these suggestions are

2683
01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:14,000
excellent ones just a fast question

2684
01:51:18,870 --> 01:51:16,480
jerry there is no successor company you

2685
01:51:21,750 --> 01:51:18,880
can contact for this publisher omni

2686
01:51:23,669 --> 01:51:21,760
graphics for which my wife used to work

2687
01:51:25,830 --> 01:51:23,679
she used to go to the office every day

2688
01:51:27,910 --> 01:51:25,840
in fact that's how we met because she

2689
01:51:31,030 --> 01:51:27,920
was the editor on the series

2690
01:51:33,910 --> 01:51:31,040
but there is a small skeletal staff and

2691
01:51:36,310 --> 01:51:33,920
i'd not even they must publish something

2692
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:36,320
but i even knew the people that i was

2693
01:51:40,229 --> 01:51:38,159
dealing with i couldn't get a straight

2694
01:51:43,189 --> 01:51:40,239
answer out of them i don't think they

2695
01:51:44,870 --> 01:51:43,199
knew what to do themselves about it

2696
01:51:46,550 --> 01:51:44,880
it was just a very strange and

2697
01:51:48,629 --> 01:51:46,560
frustrating episode

2698
01:51:49,910 --> 01:51:48,639
now when does the copyright expire on

2699
01:51:51,189 --> 01:51:49,920
this book

2700
01:51:53,510 --> 01:51:51,199
75.

2701
01:51:55,510 --> 01:51:53,520
not in my lifetime unfortunately

2702
01:51:56,790 --> 01:51:55,520
something you could do though jerry and

2703
01:51:58,229 --> 01:51:56,800
uh

2704
01:52:00,470 --> 01:51:58,239
if you could

2705
01:52:03,830 --> 01:52:00,480
have a website put together where you do

2706
01:52:05,910 --> 01:52:03,840
allow people to comment on it article by

2707
01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:05,920
article and i believe that fair use

2708
01:52:10,070 --> 01:52:07,760
guidelines would allow

2709
01:52:12,629 --> 01:52:10,080
for the reference to the article and

2710
01:52:14,550 --> 01:52:12,639
some brief quotes from it and

2711
01:52:16,229 --> 01:52:14,560
that would allow some of it to get out

2712
01:52:18,310 --> 01:52:16,239
that way and you could respond to it

2713
01:52:20,310 --> 01:52:18,320
personally if you were so interested in

2714
01:52:21,430 --> 01:52:20,320
doing something like that you know also

2715
01:52:23,350 --> 01:52:21,440
though too

2716
01:52:25,750 --> 01:52:23,360
unless it was a straight buy out from

2717
01:52:28,310 --> 01:52:25,760
the publisher unless they've sent you

2718
01:52:31,030 --> 01:52:28,320
royalty statements and royalty payments

2719
01:52:33,270 --> 01:52:31,040
the contract would uh probably be null

2720
01:52:34,870 --> 01:52:33,280
and void i mean i've gone through this

2721
01:52:36,709 --> 01:52:34,880
with publishers too they're out of

2722
01:52:40,070 --> 01:52:36,719
business they're out of business if a

2723
01:52:41,750 --> 01:52:40,080
publisher is deceased for example who's

2724
01:52:43,669 --> 01:52:41,760
going to complain

2725
01:52:45,510 --> 01:52:43,679
but some of these early ufo magazines

2726
01:52:47,189 --> 01:52:45,520
that pretended to buy the rights they're

2727
01:52:49,270 --> 01:52:47,199
not in existence and the publishers are

2728
01:52:50,950 --> 01:52:49,280
out of business so who's going to voice

2729
01:52:52,629 --> 01:52:50,960
an objection to yeah but he can't take

2730
01:52:54,229 --> 01:52:52,639
that chance you know what tim

2731
01:52:56,550 --> 01:52:54,239
i got an idea tim

2732
01:53:00,149 --> 01:52:56,560
you're a publisher why don't you talk to

2733
01:53:02,470 --> 01:53:00,159
jerry maybe you contact the publisher

2734
01:53:04,950 --> 01:53:02,480
and say i might like to

2735
01:53:06,629 --> 01:53:04,960
republish some of this book

2736
01:53:08,310 --> 01:53:06,639
what can we work out

2737
01:53:10,470 --> 01:53:08,320
and see what they do

2738
01:53:12,149 --> 01:53:10,480
and the worst they can say is no

2739
01:53:14,070 --> 01:53:12,159
you know they can say no or they can say

2740
01:53:15,750 --> 01:53:14,080
no way unless you give us all sorts of

2741
01:53:17,910 --> 01:53:15,760
money but this book is not generating

2742
01:53:20,229 --> 01:53:17,920
time for them there never was much money

2743
01:53:22,550 --> 01:53:20,239
at ufo publishing and now i'm afraid

2744
01:53:24,709 --> 01:53:22,560
there's uh there's less than uh ever

2745
01:53:27,030 --> 01:53:24,719
because everybody has become an author

2746
01:53:29,510 --> 01:53:27,040
and a publisher with the advent of

2747
01:53:31,910 --> 01:53:29,520
online publishing i mean it's just it's

2748
01:53:33,990 --> 01:53:31,920
whittled away whatever the sizable

2749
01:53:35,589 --> 01:53:34,000
market that there was i mean if i could

2750
01:53:38,390 --> 01:53:35,599
tell you the number of books i was

2751
01:53:39,350 --> 01:53:38,400
selling in the 80s it was for this type

2752
01:53:42,550 --> 01:53:39,360
of

2753
01:53:44,310 --> 01:53:42,560
material astronomical and today it's far

2754
01:53:46,470 --> 01:53:44,320
from astronomical

2755
01:53:48,629 --> 01:53:46,480
jerry let's move beyond that maybe tim

2756
01:53:50,070 --> 01:53:48,639
has some ideas for you because i'd love

2757
01:53:52,229 --> 01:53:50,080
to see something happen here and not

2758
01:53:54,950 --> 01:53:52,239
just have a moribund publisher

2759
01:53:57,350 --> 01:53:54,960
kind of lock you up how is your thinking

2760
01:54:00,390 --> 01:53:57,360
about ufos jerry clark

2761
01:54:02,390 --> 01:54:00,400
morphed and or changed over the years

2762
01:54:03,990 --> 01:54:02,400
well as i've been listening to these

2763
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:04,000
interesting accounts of people's

2764
01:54:08,470 --> 01:54:06,080
evolving ideas by ufos and i've been

2765
01:54:11,510 --> 01:54:08,480
thinking about how am i going to

2766
01:54:13,510 --> 01:54:11,520
express mine succinctly so this is as

2767
01:54:15,510 --> 01:54:13,520
succinctly as i can get i'm not going to

2768
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:15,520
go to the history i'm just going to say

2769
01:54:17,589 --> 01:54:16,480
that some

2770
01:54:19,510 --> 01:54:17,599
about

2771
01:54:23,350 --> 01:54:19,520
sometime in the

2772
01:54:24,950 --> 01:54:23,360
about 10 15 years ago it came to me that

2773
01:54:26,790 --> 01:54:24,960
we're dealing with two things we're

2774
01:54:28,790 --> 01:54:26,800
dealing with event anomalies and

2775
01:54:30,709 --> 01:54:28,800
experience anomalies

2776
01:54:33,430 --> 01:54:30,719
and event anomalies are things that are

2777
01:54:35,589 --> 01:54:33,440
potentially verifiable in the world that

2778
01:54:37,910 --> 01:54:35,599
seem to operate according to

2779
01:54:40,870 --> 01:54:37,920
conventional laws of physics

2780
01:54:43,270 --> 01:54:40,880
and are are solvable they're unexplained

2781
01:54:46,229 --> 01:54:43,280
but not inexplicable experience

2782
01:54:48,070 --> 01:54:46,239
anomalies are the high strangeness

2783
01:54:49,189 --> 01:54:48,080
phenomena that people

2784
01:54:52,390 --> 01:54:49,199
report

2785
01:54:54,149 --> 01:54:52,400
but don't seem to exist outside people's

2786
01:54:56,550 --> 01:54:54,159
experiences of them now these are

2787
01:54:58,790 --> 01:54:56,560
extraordinarily anomalous

2788
01:55:00,709 --> 01:54:58,800
experiences they're not hallucinations

2789
01:55:03,189 --> 01:55:00,719
they're not you can't put them in any

2790
01:55:06,390 --> 01:55:03,199
kind of conventional category but their

2791
01:55:08,790 --> 01:55:06,400
genesis is quite complicated having to

2792
01:55:10,229 --> 01:55:08,800
do with human consciousness ideas from

2793
01:55:12,470 --> 01:55:10,239
the culture

2794
01:55:14,550 --> 01:55:12,480
traditions of the supernatural

2795
01:55:17,430 --> 01:55:14,560
and the problem is i think that we

2796
01:55:20,629 --> 01:55:17,440
conflate event anomalies with experience

2797
01:55:21,990 --> 01:55:20,639
anomalies and and sometimes the two

2798
01:55:25,030 --> 01:55:22,000
phenomena

2799
01:55:26,310 --> 01:55:25,040
may look alike and have a surface

2800
01:55:29,270 --> 01:55:26,320
similarity

2801
01:55:33,189 --> 01:55:29,280
but are actually phenomenologically very

2802
01:55:35,270 --> 01:55:33,199
very different in the last 10 20 years

2803
01:55:38,070 --> 01:55:35,280
my interest has been almost entirely

2804
01:55:40,149 --> 01:55:38,080
focused on experience anomalies and i've

2805
01:55:43,910 --> 01:55:40,159
written extensively on the most of my

2806
01:55:46,629 --> 01:55:43,920
writing these days appears in 40 times

2807
01:55:49,270 --> 01:55:46,639
and i have a feature article coming out

2808
01:55:52,629 --> 01:55:49,280
before the years out in floridian times

2809
01:55:55,510 --> 01:55:52,639
called wilson experience anomaly which

2810
01:55:58,229 --> 01:55:55,520
is a case history of an experience

2811
01:56:00,310 --> 01:55:58,239
anomaly i lectured on experience

2812
01:56:01,510 --> 01:56:00,320
anomalies of society for scientific

2813
01:56:04,629 --> 01:56:01,520
exploration

2814
01:56:06,950 --> 01:56:04,639
in 2008 when i won the

2815
01:56:09,510 --> 01:56:06,960
tim dinsdale award for scholarship and

2816
01:56:12,550 --> 01:56:09,520
anomalies and that's really what i'm

2817
01:56:15,990 --> 01:56:12,560
interested in now i'm i'm interested in

2818
01:56:17,990 --> 01:56:16,000
just how anomalies are experienced not

2819
01:56:21,270 --> 01:56:18,000
so much now they're verified because i

2820
01:56:23,669 --> 01:56:21,280
think that event anomalies are actually

2821
01:56:26,149 --> 01:56:23,679
probably the smallest part of the

2822
01:56:29,109 --> 01:56:26,159
picture and experience anomalies are

2823
01:56:31,990 --> 01:56:29,119
simply so far beyond current knowledge

2824
01:56:34,070 --> 01:56:32,000
that all we can talk about is how they

2825
01:56:37,270 --> 01:56:34,080
happen how they perceive what the

2826
01:56:38,790 --> 01:56:37,280
mechanics of them are without go without

2827
01:56:41,109 --> 01:56:38,800
having any idea

2828
01:56:43,669 --> 01:56:41,119
about what generates them what what's

2829
01:56:46,390 --> 01:56:43,679
behind them we just know how they're

2830
01:56:49,830 --> 01:56:46,400
experienced and they go all the way from

2831
01:56:52,310 --> 01:56:49,840
fairy lore encounters with divine beings

2832
01:56:55,430 --> 01:56:52,320
ufo abductions there's just a whole

2833
01:56:57,510 --> 01:56:55,440
range of things that appear in that are

2834
01:56:58,629 --> 01:56:57,520
experienced in different kinds of

2835
01:57:01,350 --> 01:56:58,639
cultural

2836
01:57:04,550 --> 01:57:01,360
contexts but all are experienced

2837
01:57:06,229 --> 01:57:04,560
vividly that people are not mistaking

2838
01:57:07,589 --> 01:57:06,239
what's happening to them it's really

2839
01:57:08,310 --> 01:57:07,599
happening to them

2840
01:57:10,709 --> 01:57:08,320
but

2841
01:57:13,030 --> 01:57:10,719
what they think is happening to them may

2842
01:57:14,470 --> 01:57:13,040
not be what is really happening to them

2843
01:57:15,990 --> 01:57:14,480
and we're dealing with something that

2844
01:57:18,470 --> 01:57:16,000
really as i say

2845
01:57:21,189 --> 01:57:18,480
is just simply so far beyond current

2846
01:57:23,510 --> 01:57:21,199
knowledge it's very difficult to talk

2847
01:57:25,189 --> 01:57:23,520
about more specifically we got more to

2848
01:57:27,030 --> 01:57:25,199
come jerome clark

2849
01:57:29,270 --> 01:57:27,040
rick hill bergow in greenfield tim

2850
01:57:37,189 --> 01:57:29,280
beckley with jay randall murphy you're

2851
01:57:40,229 --> 01:57:39,270
neighbors i want to tell you about my

2852
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favorite

2853
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graphics app it's the award-winning

2854
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graphic converter you know graphic

2855
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inverter is the universal genius for

2856
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photo editing on your mac join over one

2857
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and a half million loyal users for this

2858
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2859
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it gives you all you expect from a top

2860
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flight image editing app with tons of

2861
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features and most important

2862
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it's easy to use it's also far less

2863
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expensive than that other app that you

2864
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can only get by subscription you know

2865
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the one i'm talking about

2866
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2867
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2868
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2869
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2870
01:58:27,750 --> 01:58:26,320
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2871
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2872
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let me spell that

2873
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w w w dot l e m k e

2874
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dot d e

2875
01:58:39,589 --> 01:58:36,719
slash gene

2876
01:58:41,030 --> 01:58:39,599
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2877
01:58:43,109 --> 01:58:41,040
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2878
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2879
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2880
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2881
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2882
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2883
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2884
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2885
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2886
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2889
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2890
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2891
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2892
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2893
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2894
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2895
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2896
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2897
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2898
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2899
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2900
01:59:38,870 --> 01:59:35,040
george if you decide to connect with

2901
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looking for that edge during those

2902
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intimate moments we see many ads for

2903
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enhancement but the side effects include

2904
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2905
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2906
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healthy libido pack the brain and heart

2907
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are not the only organs that require a

2908
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healthy vascular system for proper blood

2909
02:00:02,310 --> 01:59:57,639
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2910
02:00:05,109 --> 02:00:02,320
gcnteam.com or call 877 878 4203 that's

2911
02:00:09,270 --> 02:00:05,119
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2912
02:00:13,350 --> 02:00:10,950
it's about time something new came along

2913
02:00:16,470 --> 02:00:13,360
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2914
02:00:18,709 --> 02:00:16,480
i found it what now marge it's buy sell

2915
02:00:20,070 --> 02:00:18,719
makeoffer.com never heard of it it's a

2916
02:00:21,830 --> 02:00:20,080
brand new company that's why you've

2917
02:00:24,070 --> 02:00:21,840
never heard of it it's the newest and

2918
02:00:26,229 --> 02:00:24,080
best way to sell any products online i

2919
02:00:29,350 --> 02:00:26,239
did all the research sell my car yes our

2920
02:00:30,870 --> 02:00:29,360
home yep my golf bag your golf clubs all

2921
02:00:31,750 --> 02:00:30,880
of them how about your purse collection

2922
02:00:35,270 --> 02:00:31,760
horde

2923
02:00:37,189 --> 02:00:35,280
now you said any product right i did

2924
02:00:41,910 --> 02:00:37,199
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2925
02:00:44,550 --> 02:00:41,920
only 9.95 yep and buy sell makeoffer.com

2926
02:00:46,629 --> 02:00:44,560
will never charge item fees ever

2927
02:00:49,270 --> 02:00:46,639
never and this is cool listen to this

2928
02:00:51,589 --> 02:00:49,280
you can even use skype or video to show

2929
02:00:53,750 --> 02:00:51,599
your items that's cool yes all we have

2930
02:00:56,149 --> 02:00:53,760
to do is go to the website sign up and

2931
02:00:58,950 --> 02:00:56,159
then load our stuff to sell i love this

2932
02:01:00,470 --> 02:00:58,960
site buy sell makeoffer.com buy

2933
02:01:01,870 --> 02:01:00,480
sellmakeoffer.com

2934
02:01:04,669 --> 02:01:01,880
you got it

2935
02:01:07,270 --> 02:01:04,679
buysellmakeoffer.com i sell

2936
02:01:08,550 --> 02:01:07,280
makeoffer.com better selling better

2937
02:01:10,070 --> 02:01:08,560
buying

2938
02:01:11,990 --> 02:01:10,080
this is dan pillow do you have the irs

2939
02:01:13,830 --> 02:01:12,000
money you can't pay are tax debts

2940
02:01:16,149 --> 02:01:13,840
crippling you i've defended people from

2941
02:01:18,229 --> 02:01:16,159
the irs for over 30 years i've helped

2942
02:01:19,669 --> 02:01:18,239
thousands and i can help you too i wrote

2943
02:01:21,350 --> 02:01:19,679
the book on irs settlement and i'm

2944
02:01:22,470 --> 02:01:21,360
telling you there's no such thing as a

2945
02:01:25,589 --> 02:01:22,480
hopeless case

2946
02:01:27,750 --> 02:01:25,599
call 834 no tax to finally get free of

2947
02:01:29,109 --> 02:01:27,760
irs debt with the irs's new programs

2948
02:01:32,149 --> 02:01:29,119
there's never been a better time to

2949
02:01:35,510 --> 02:01:32,159
solve your problem call 834 no tax

2950
02:01:40,550 --> 02:01:35,520
that's 800 34 no tax on my website

2951
02:01:45,270 --> 02:01:42,790
we'd like to hear from you if you have a

2952
02:01:48,790 --> 02:01:45,280
comment or question about the paracast

2953
02:01:52,070 --> 02:01:48,800
send it to news at theparacast.com

2954
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:52,080
that's news at theparacast.com

2955
02:01:56,390 --> 02:01:53,920
and don't forget to visit our famous

2956
02:02:01,109 --> 02:01:56,400
paracast community forums at

2957
02:02:04,550 --> 02:02:02,790
speaking of

2958
02:02:06,149 --> 02:02:04,560
experiencers

2959
02:02:07,589 --> 02:02:06,159
just happen to have

2960
02:02:09,510 --> 02:02:07,599
here a book that we're going to talk

2961
02:02:10,390 --> 02:02:09,520
about probably next week from anomalous

2962
02:02:12,310 --> 02:02:10,400
books

2963
02:02:15,430 --> 02:02:12,320
it's called no return

2964
02:02:17,270 --> 02:02:15,440
the jerry irwin story ufo abduction or

2965
02:02:19,030 --> 02:02:17,280
covert operation

2966
02:02:21,270 --> 02:02:19,040
and it talks about

2967
02:02:22,950 --> 02:02:21,280
a case back in the late

2968
02:02:25,510 --> 02:02:22,960
1950s

2969
02:02:26,390 --> 02:02:25,520
that may have similarities

2970
02:02:30,310 --> 02:02:26,400
to

2971
02:02:32,550 --> 02:02:30,320
betty and barney hill only it happened a

2972
02:02:34,149 --> 02:02:32,560
little bit earlier so that's interesting

2973
02:02:35,030 --> 02:02:34,159
that's about experiences and we'll look

2974
02:02:37,030 --> 02:02:35,040
at that

2975
02:02:39,030 --> 02:02:37,040
interesting how our viewpoints have

2976
02:02:42,950 --> 02:02:39,040
changed and tim we kind of know where

2977
02:02:45,830 --> 02:02:42,960
you stand but just quickly randall

2978
02:02:48,229 --> 02:02:45,840
you are less of an outright nuts and

2979
02:02:50,149 --> 02:02:48,239
bolts are now than you used to be

2980
02:02:51,910 --> 02:02:50,159
that really depends on how you look at

2981
02:02:54,470 --> 02:02:51,920
the question in the first place and i

2982
02:02:57,030 --> 02:02:54,480
think that ufology and ufologists in

2983
02:03:00,470 --> 02:02:57,040
general don't have a united

2984
02:03:02,790 --> 02:03:00,480
view of what actually the word ufo means

2985
02:03:05,030 --> 02:03:02,800
what ufology is and how it should be

2986
02:03:07,510 --> 02:03:05,040
approached in a logical manner perhaps

2987
02:03:09,669 --> 02:03:07,520
with the exception of uh jerome

2988
02:03:11,350 --> 02:03:09,679
who uh has done a fantastic job in my

2989
02:03:13,270 --> 02:03:11,360
opinion most of the time

2990
02:03:15,430 --> 02:03:13,280
i couldn't have said it better myself

2991
02:03:17,270 --> 02:03:15,440
when you said uh what they think is

2992
02:03:18,709 --> 02:03:17,280
happening may not be what is actually

2993
02:03:21,350 --> 02:03:18,719
happening

2994
02:03:22,870 --> 02:03:21,360
while i have uh the the mic here before

2995
02:03:24,870 --> 02:03:22,880
i go on with any of my own i really

2996
02:03:27,430 --> 02:03:24,880
would like to grab the mic from him

2997
02:03:29,910 --> 02:03:27,440
using the hook the hooks right round his

2998
02:03:31,750 --> 02:03:29,920
neck go ahead please let's because we've

2999
02:03:35,189 --> 02:03:31,760
got another question in the forum here

3000
02:03:36,390 --> 02:03:35,199
from one of our our regular posters ron

3001
02:03:38,550 --> 02:03:36,400
away who's

3002
02:03:41,109 --> 02:03:38,560
as chris likes to point out when he's on

3003
02:03:43,430 --> 02:03:41,119
has more likes than posts and this is

3004
02:03:46,149 --> 02:03:43,440
kind of a question for everybody here

3005
02:03:48,390 --> 02:03:46,159
do you have any ideas on how to engage

3006
02:03:50,709 --> 02:03:48,400
the next generation of investigators to

3007
02:03:53,350 --> 02:03:50,719
inspire young people or younger people

3008
02:03:55,510 --> 02:03:53,360
the next generation to get involved and

3009
02:03:57,510 --> 02:03:55,520
we ask that of a lot of guests but this

3010
02:03:59,669 --> 02:03:57,520
is a chance to ask all you guys together

3011
02:04:01,350 --> 02:03:59,679
while you're all here and get a response

3012
02:04:04,229 --> 02:04:01,360
from everyone

3013
02:04:07,030 --> 02:04:04,239
i think there won't be a next generation

3014
02:04:08,470 --> 02:04:07,040
of ufologists per se

3015
02:04:10,629 --> 02:04:08,480
i think that

3016
02:04:13,589 --> 02:04:10,639
the best strategy

3017
02:04:14,550 --> 02:04:13,599
would be to make it

3018
02:04:22,149 --> 02:04:14,560
or

3019
02:04:24,550 --> 02:04:22,159
is

3020
02:04:25,870 --> 02:04:24,560
i'm talking about serious academic

3021
02:04:27,430 --> 02:04:25,880
research

3022
02:04:28,870 --> 02:04:27,440
overextended

3023
02:04:31,109 --> 02:04:28,880
as it is

3024
02:04:33,030 --> 02:04:31,119
nevertheless i would recommend

3025
02:04:34,950 --> 02:04:33,040
approaching for example the university

3026
02:04:37,990 --> 02:04:34,960
of virginia which has done marvelous

3027
02:04:39,750 --> 02:04:38,000
work with a lot of paranormal things

3028
02:04:41,030 --> 02:04:39,760
dean radden

3029
02:04:43,589 --> 02:04:41,040
is also

3030
02:04:45,669 --> 02:04:43,599
someone that i would approach i think

3031
02:04:47,910 --> 02:04:45,679
that it should be treated

3032
02:04:50,470 --> 02:04:47,920
as a paranormal phenomenon by the way i

3033
02:04:53,270 --> 02:04:50,480
don't disagree with jerry on

3034
02:04:55,270 --> 02:04:53,280
not knowing the ultimate answer i'm

3035
02:04:56,709 --> 02:04:55,280
speculating that it may

3036
02:04:58,310 --> 02:04:56,719
involve

3037
02:04:59,510 --> 02:04:58,320
quantum

3038
02:05:02,310 --> 02:04:59,520
phenomena

3039
02:05:05,830 --> 02:05:02,320
but the experience has its own

3040
02:05:06,709 --> 02:05:05,840
luminosity and is its own luminosity and

3041
02:05:09,430 --> 02:05:06,719
that

3042
02:05:11,589 --> 02:05:09,440
is true of all paranormal things uh

3043
02:05:13,510 --> 02:05:11,599
near-death experiences what are we doing

3044
02:05:16,950 --> 02:05:13,520
we're getting off track there we no it's

3045
02:05:21,149 --> 02:05:16,960
not off track at all near experiences

3046
02:05:22,709 --> 02:05:21,159
and ufo experiences have an identical

3047
02:05:25,350 --> 02:05:22,719
underlying

3048
02:05:28,149 --> 02:05:25,360
similarity in that they are numinous

3049
02:05:29,350 --> 02:05:28,159
experiences that the bottom line on them

3050
02:05:32,229 --> 02:05:29,360
is not

3051
02:05:34,070 --> 02:05:32,239
uh accessible to us what does that have

3052
02:05:36,470 --> 02:05:34,080
to do with getting young people involved

3053
02:05:38,310 --> 02:05:36,480
in the next generation of ufology that's

3054
02:05:40,470 --> 02:05:38,320
the question so let's yes

3055
02:05:42,870 --> 02:05:40,480
i answered that okay let's move on to

3056
02:05:43,830 --> 02:05:42,880
the next guest okay who else can step in

3057
02:05:45,109 --> 02:05:43,840
there

3058
02:05:46,470 --> 02:05:45,119
i i've always

3059
02:05:48,790 --> 02:05:46,480
wondered actually

3060
02:05:50,390 --> 02:05:48,800
why you know there seems to be some

3061
02:05:52,709 --> 02:05:50,400
evangelistic

3062
02:05:56,070 --> 02:05:52,719
attitude among those in in ufos that

3063
02:05:58,470 --> 02:05:56,080
we've got to pass this uh on you know in

3064
02:06:00,790 --> 02:05:58,480
in most cases now and not in in all the

3065
02:06:03,270 --> 02:06:00,800
cases but it seems that the most people

3066
02:06:05,430 --> 02:06:03,280
who get involved in this are those that

3067
02:06:07,910 --> 02:06:05,440
have some sort of

3068
02:06:09,990 --> 02:06:07,920
experience you know i can come to your

3069
02:06:12,070 --> 02:06:10,000
house let's say that i'm a member of

3070
02:06:14,950 --> 02:06:12,080
some you know religious uh

3071
02:06:18,790 --> 02:06:14,960
group and i can knock on your door and

3072
02:06:20,550 --> 02:06:18,800
and try to convert you to my uh way of

3073
02:06:21,830 --> 02:06:20,560
believing my belief system but you're

3074
02:06:24,229 --> 02:06:21,840
probably going to end up slamming the

3075
02:06:27,189 --> 02:06:24,239
door in my face and i think it's the

3076
02:06:28,550 --> 02:06:27,199
same way with you ufos i don't see any

3077
02:06:30,310 --> 02:06:28,560
reason really

3078
02:06:32,069 --> 02:06:30,320
people that are that are interested in

3079
02:06:34,790 --> 02:06:32,079
this and have an experience will

3080
02:06:36,550 --> 02:06:34,800
gravitate to it gravitate to this by

3081
02:06:39,030 --> 02:06:36,560
themselves i don't think that there's

3082
02:06:41,910 --> 02:06:39,040
anything really that you could do to pop

3083
02:06:43,830 --> 02:06:41,920
up that uh you know interest it could be

3084
02:06:46,950 --> 02:06:43,840
that they still read a book maybe they

3085
02:06:48,629 --> 02:06:46,960
watch an episode of ancient aliens or it

3086
02:06:51,990 --> 02:06:48,639
could be that some sighting above their

3087
02:06:53,990 --> 02:06:52,000
house just like uh mine at the age of 10

3088
02:06:55,910 --> 02:06:54,000
got me involved in this i i don't know

3089
02:06:59,350 --> 02:06:55,920
whether if this is something that you

3090
02:07:01,030 --> 02:06:59,360
can pass down to another generation they

3091
02:07:02,870 --> 02:07:01,040
they will find it if that's their

3092
02:07:04,390 --> 02:07:02,880
calling in life that's that's a really

3093
02:07:06,870 --> 02:07:04,400
interesting answer so you're saying well

3094
02:07:08,709 --> 02:07:06,880
maybe we shouldn't really focus on that

3095
02:07:10,550 --> 02:07:08,719
as much as just let it evolve

3096
02:07:11,990 --> 02:07:10,560
organically with the next generation and

3097
02:07:13,990 --> 02:07:12,000
see what comes of it interesting

3098
02:07:15,589 --> 02:07:14,000
response yeah yeah well i don't i don't

3099
02:07:17,589 --> 02:07:15,599
you know how can you give this to to

3100
02:07:20,709 --> 02:07:17,599
somebody if they're not interested in it

3101
02:07:23,750 --> 02:07:20,719
it's you can't push it down their their

3102
02:07:25,270 --> 02:07:23,760
throat and academia for example has a

3103
02:07:27,430 --> 02:07:25,280
little interest in it so they're not

3104
02:07:30,709 --> 02:07:27,440
going to learn about it in school in

3105
02:07:32,950 --> 02:07:30,719
fact if if anything we're now told uh

3106
02:07:34,390 --> 02:07:32,960
you know that the teachers shouldn't

3107
02:07:36,069 --> 02:07:34,400
accept even

3108
02:07:37,990 --> 02:07:36,079
you know book reports and things along

3109
02:07:39,990 --> 02:07:38,000
that line if they deal with any of these

3110
02:07:42,390 --> 02:07:40,000
subjects thank you james randy and other

3111
02:07:44,870 --> 02:07:42,400
skeptics okay how about uh next guest

3112
02:07:47,350 --> 02:07:44,880
who hasn't uh weighed in on this one yet

3113
02:07:50,310 --> 02:07:47,360
rick hillberg well this is rick my

3114
02:07:52,950 --> 02:07:50,320
feeling on the whole thing is that i

3115
02:07:55,669 --> 02:07:52,960
it's true that people drift in and out

3116
02:07:58,550 --> 02:07:55,679
of the ufo field whatever we want to

3117
02:08:01,430 --> 02:07:58,560
call it ufology whatever

3118
02:08:03,910 --> 02:08:01,440
most people get into it and they take a

3119
02:08:05,750 --> 02:08:03,920
nuts and bolts approach at first they

3120
02:08:07,430 --> 02:08:05,760
try to gather evidence they try to do

3121
02:08:09,109 --> 02:08:07,440
this they try to do that

3122
02:08:11,830 --> 02:08:09,119
and they find out that they're not

3123
02:08:15,030 --> 02:08:11,840
getting any answers they're not finding

3124
02:08:17,430 --> 02:08:15,040
that what the ufos actually are i know

3125
02:08:20,149 --> 02:08:17,440
we all started out back in the 60s hell

3126
02:08:21,990 --> 02:08:20,159
in in in the club news section your

3127
02:08:24,069 --> 02:08:22,000
organization my organization we all

3128
02:08:26,229 --> 02:08:24,079
wanted to get to the bottom of this we

3129
02:08:29,430 --> 02:08:26,239
wanted to solve the ufo mystery well

3130
02:08:32,069 --> 02:08:29,440
it's unsolvable it's a very personal

3131
02:08:35,030 --> 02:08:32,079
very personal thing and i think we all

3132
02:08:37,589 --> 02:08:35,040
have to get involved with it and evolve

3133
02:08:40,149 --> 02:08:37,599
with it and i think people who spend too

3134
02:08:41,669 --> 02:08:40,159
much time on the nuts and bolts approach

3135
02:08:43,750 --> 02:08:41,679
are doomed to fail you're in there

3136
02:08:46,709 --> 02:08:43,760
they're going to drop out it it's a very

3137
02:08:49,109 --> 02:08:46,719
personal almost spiritual experience

3138
02:08:51,109 --> 02:08:49,119
well that is a fault of mufon let's go

3139
02:08:52,550 --> 02:08:51,119
on past the mufon jerry clark your

3140
02:08:55,189 --> 02:08:52,560
observation

3141
02:08:57,830 --> 02:08:55,199
well i think one thing we need to do

3142
02:09:00,149 --> 02:08:57,840
not we here because we're victims of

3143
02:09:02,470 --> 02:09:00,159
history like everybody else but we grew

3144
02:09:03,750 --> 02:09:02,480
up with ufo phenomenon

3145
02:09:06,790 --> 02:09:03,760
and we went

3146
02:09:08,950 --> 02:09:06,800
through all the various crazes and and

3147
02:09:10,790 --> 02:09:08,960
phases and so on and looked at it from

3148
02:09:13,350 --> 02:09:10,800
this direction that direction that

3149
02:09:15,270 --> 02:09:13,360
that's inevitable and that's healthy but

3150
02:09:18,149 --> 02:09:15,280
i think that as i listen to a lot of the

3151
02:09:19,109 --> 02:09:18,159
conversation i just feel like we're

3152
02:09:22,229 --> 02:09:19,119
still

3153
02:09:26,550 --> 02:09:22,239
stuck in old feuds and old

3154
02:09:27,830 --> 02:09:26,560
dichotomies old old debates i don't know

3155
02:09:30,870 --> 02:09:27,840
that

3156
02:09:34,149 --> 02:09:30,880
the next generation whichever whoever it

3157
02:09:35,430 --> 02:09:34,159
is we'll be stuck in that i think that

3158
02:09:36,870 --> 02:09:35,440
they're going to come and they're not

3159
02:09:39,189 --> 02:09:36,880
going to worry

3160
02:09:40,310 --> 02:09:39,199
about nuts and bolts or

3161
02:09:42,149 --> 02:09:40,320
or

3162
02:09:44,550 --> 02:09:42,159
psychic phenomena those things i think

3163
02:09:46,310 --> 02:09:44,560
they're going to take a fresh look at it

3164
02:09:49,750 --> 02:09:46,320
and just look at the evidence i think

3165
02:09:51,910 --> 02:09:49,760
that one lamentable thing that happened

3166
02:09:54,149 --> 02:09:51,920
to our generation and

3167
02:09:56,310 --> 02:09:54,159
and i don't don't blame anybody because

3168
02:09:58,550 --> 02:09:56,320
it's really inevitable

3169
02:10:01,750 --> 02:09:58,560
and that is the kind of binary thinking

3170
02:10:04,149 --> 02:10:01,760
that that nuts and bolts versus high

3171
02:10:06,550 --> 02:10:04,159
strangeness cases

3172
02:10:08,470 --> 02:10:06,560
you know i think that we just need to

3173
02:10:09,990 --> 02:10:08,480
understand that ufos may be more than

3174
02:10:12,229 --> 02:10:10,000
one thing

3175
02:10:14,229 --> 02:10:12,239
let's continue on that theory jerry in

3176
02:10:15,430 --> 02:10:14,239
our next segment jerome clark rick

3177
02:10:17,669 --> 02:10:15,440
hillberg

3178
02:10:28,550 --> 02:10:17,679
tim beckley allen greenfield jay randall

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you are listening to gcn

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visit

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gcnlive.com today

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listening to the paracast the gold

3277
02:15:02,790 --> 02:14:53,940
standard of paranormal radio

3278
02:15:06,470 --> 02:15:04,550
so the question was of course getting

3279
02:15:07,589 --> 02:15:06,480
young people interested

3280
02:15:09,750 --> 02:15:07,599
in this

3281
02:15:11,830 --> 02:15:09,760
and jerry clark talking about binary

3282
02:15:13,350 --> 02:15:11,840
thinking either or

3283
02:15:14,390 --> 02:15:13,360
that sort of thing let's continue with

3284
02:15:16,629 --> 02:15:14,400
that jerry

3285
02:15:19,430 --> 02:15:16,639
yeah i think that um you know where the

3286
02:15:21,910 --> 02:15:19,440
exit trust hypothesis is concerned which

3287
02:15:24,069 --> 02:15:21,920
i continue to be open-minded about it

3288
02:15:25,589 --> 02:15:24,079
just doesn't interest me as much as it

3289
02:15:28,069 --> 02:15:25,599
used to but that doesn't mean it's

3290
02:15:29,750 --> 02:15:28,079
invalid if you're going to look for

3291
02:15:32,550 --> 02:15:29,760
extraterrestrial visitors you're going

3292
02:15:34,790 --> 02:15:32,560
to look at the old-fashioned hard

3293
02:15:37,589 --> 02:15:34,800
evidence cases the radar visuals the

3294
02:15:40,870 --> 02:15:37,599
ce2s and so on that's what the evidence

3295
02:15:42,950 --> 02:15:40,880
is if it's there but the other cases

3296
02:15:45,350 --> 02:15:42,960
which actually interest me more are the

3297
02:15:48,629 --> 02:15:45,360
high strangeness cases the experience

3298
02:15:51,510 --> 02:15:48,639
anomalies where something is vividly

3299
02:15:54,149 --> 02:15:51,520
experienced and survives only in

3300
02:15:56,790 --> 02:15:54,159
perception memory and testimony but

3301
02:15:59,750 --> 02:15:56,800
nowhere else if you're going to look for

3302
02:16:02,069 --> 02:15:59,760
extraterrestrial ufos in high strangers

3303
02:16:04,390 --> 02:16:02,079
cases in which i include by the way ufo

3304
02:16:06,069 --> 02:16:04,400
abduction stories you're not going to

3305
02:16:08,629 --> 02:16:06,079
find evidence of extraterrestrial

3306
02:16:11,750 --> 02:16:08,639
visitation you have to look elsewhere

3307
02:16:14,790 --> 02:16:11,760
and this is the dichotomy between

3308
02:16:17,109 --> 02:16:14,800
event anomalies and experience anomalies

3309
02:16:18,629 --> 02:16:17,119
we have to decide where we're going to

3310
02:16:21,189 --> 02:16:18,639
look because when you're dealing with

3311
02:16:24,229 --> 02:16:21,199
anomalies generally there's all kinds of

3312
02:16:26,550 --> 02:16:24,239
ways to enter into the room there are

3313
02:16:28,870 --> 02:16:26,560
all kinds of doors into the room

3314
02:16:30,950 --> 02:16:28,880
you just have to remember

3315
02:16:33,429 --> 02:16:30,960
that there are many doors there's not

3316
02:16:35,270 --> 02:16:33,439
just necessarily one door

3317
02:16:37,110 --> 02:16:35,280
that these things

3318
02:16:39,589 --> 02:16:37,120
happen or don't happen or are

3319
02:16:41,589 --> 02:16:39,599
experienced in all kinds of ways we

3320
02:16:44,309 --> 02:16:41,599
really need to be fortians not

3321
02:16:46,549 --> 02:16:44,319
dogmatists about what is or is not

3322
02:16:48,389 --> 02:16:46,559
happening i think that the young the

3323
02:16:50,389 --> 02:16:48,399
next generation comes along and i

3324
02:16:51,910 --> 02:16:50,399
presume there will be a next generation

3325
02:16:54,070 --> 02:16:51,920
from time to time i hear from

3326
02:16:55,830 --> 02:16:54,080
intelligent thoughtful young people and

3327
02:16:57,910 --> 02:16:55,840
that gives me hope that there is a next

3328
02:17:00,790 --> 02:16:57,920
generation they'll have a chance to look

3329
02:17:04,309 --> 02:17:00,800
at this thing learn from what we learned

3330
02:17:07,110 --> 02:17:04,319
what we passed on but also from our own

3331
02:17:10,389 --> 02:17:07,120
blindnesses and mistakes that we were

3332
02:17:13,110 --> 02:17:10,399
oblivious to i always tell my kids you

3333
02:17:15,429 --> 02:17:13,120
know if i can't do anything else for you

3334
02:17:18,389 --> 02:17:15,439
i can serve as a bad example

3335
02:17:21,270 --> 02:17:18,399
in a sense maybe we can serve as bad

3336
02:17:23,030 --> 02:17:21,280
examples to the next generation

3337
02:17:26,469 --> 02:17:23,040
most kids have already agreed that their

3338
02:17:32,070 --> 02:17:28,950
i will refer to my son grayson i think

3339
02:17:33,589 --> 02:17:32,080
he's kind of mixed about that we've done

3340
02:17:35,349 --> 02:17:33,599
work together we've written books

3341
02:17:37,509 --> 02:17:35,359
together but on the other hand he has

3342
02:17:38,790 --> 02:17:37,519
his own life and his own thing that he

3343
02:17:41,429 --> 02:17:38,800
does

3344
02:17:43,509 --> 02:17:41,439
may i ask jerry a question

3345
02:17:45,270 --> 02:17:43,519
yes we can allow that we have to of

3346
02:17:46,709 --> 02:17:45,280
course get a vote

3347
02:17:49,990 --> 02:17:46,719
now go okay

3348
02:17:51,910 --> 02:17:50,000
take the vote jerry okay i you know i

3349
02:17:54,070 --> 02:17:51,920
don't disagree with what you're saying

3350
02:17:57,429 --> 02:17:54,080
although it's still somewhat binary you

3351
02:17:58,629 --> 02:17:57,439
know there's but uh if you met one of

3352
02:18:00,629 --> 02:17:58,639
these

3353
02:18:02,469 --> 02:18:00,639
and i haven't met a lot of them among

3354
02:18:04,950 --> 02:18:02,479
the millennials

3355
02:18:09,110 --> 02:18:04,960
one of these is young people who aspires

3356
02:18:12,629 --> 02:18:09,120
to deal with the high strangeness cases

3357
02:18:14,070 --> 02:18:12,639
and they're about to start their college

3358
02:18:16,389 --> 02:18:14,080
education

3359
02:18:20,870 --> 02:18:16,399
what subjects would you recommend to

3360
02:18:22,469 --> 02:18:20,880
them as prerequisites to delving into

3361
02:18:24,790 --> 02:18:22,479
into the phenomena

3362
02:18:26,950 --> 02:18:24,800
well if they're dealing with ex they're

3363
02:18:28,469 --> 02:18:26,960
interested in what i call experience

3364
02:18:29,429 --> 02:18:28,479
anomalies the highest strangers of an

3365
02:18:32,070 --> 02:18:29,439
alumni

3366
02:18:34,629 --> 02:18:32,080
i'd suggest uh psychology history

3367
02:18:36,309 --> 02:18:34,639
culture studies folklore i agree

3368
02:18:38,389 --> 02:18:36,319
completely

3369
02:18:40,950 --> 02:18:38,399
interesting hey this is very interesting

3370
02:18:43,030 --> 02:18:40,960
that we have alan greenfield and jerome

3371
02:18:44,709 --> 02:18:43,040
clark agreeing on something

3372
02:18:46,870 --> 02:18:44,719
yeah

3373
02:18:48,950 --> 02:18:46,880
i think that eventually

3374
02:18:50,870 --> 02:18:48,960
what we've been doing

3375
02:18:53,030 --> 02:18:50,880
collectively and what our people are

3376
02:18:54,549 --> 02:18:53,040
doing now we'll do in the future someday

3377
02:18:56,870 --> 02:18:54,559
in the future

3378
02:19:00,230 --> 02:18:56,880
when we're all dead and buried and gone

3379
02:19:03,270 --> 02:19:00,240
i think that the ufo topic will be

3380
02:19:05,190 --> 02:19:03,280
of more interest to behavioral sciences

3381
02:19:07,669 --> 02:19:05,200
than the physical sciences and that's

3382
02:19:09,270 --> 02:19:07,679
the bottom line and that's i think that

3383
02:19:11,990 --> 02:19:09,280
i think that's good i think that's where

3384
02:19:14,389 --> 02:19:12,000
we should you know jerry said yeah take

3385
02:19:16,549 --> 02:19:14,399
psychology you know et cetera et cetera

3386
02:19:17,830 --> 02:19:16,559
yeah that's that's that's going to be it

3387
02:19:20,790 --> 02:19:17,840
that's how we're going to understand

3388
02:19:23,030 --> 02:19:20,800
what's been going on well i don't mean

3389
02:19:24,790 --> 02:19:23,040
it in a debunking sense

3390
02:19:27,349 --> 02:19:24,800
i mean i believe why

3391
02:19:29,349 --> 02:19:27,359
yeah and i also think that there are

3392
02:19:31,429 --> 02:19:29,359
part of the ce2s in the heart evidence

3393
02:19:33,750 --> 02:19:31,439
cases that if someone was interested in

3394
02:19:35,830 --> 02:19:33,760
those that person should study physics

3395
02:19:37,270 --> 02:19:35,840
and chemistry and astronomy

3396
02:19:39,429 --> 02:19:37,280
those are the tools of which you would

3397
02:19:41,589 --> 02:19:39,439
approach that but the kinds of things

3398
02:19:43,030 --> 02:19:41,599
that interest me and i think the rest of

3399
02:19:44,790 --> 02:19:43,040
us here were i think we're mostly

3400
02:19:46,790 --> 02:19:44,800
interested in the high strangers

3401
02:19:47,669 --> 02:19:46,800
i think that these things are filtered

3402
02:19:50,230 --> 02:19:47,679
through

3403
02:19:52,309 --> 02:19:50,240
culture and history and

3404
02:19:54,710 --> 02:19:52,319
and that's we have to have a firm

3405
02:19:57,670 --> 02:19:54,720
understanding of those things just to

3406
02:20:00,550 --> 02:19:57,680
understand the kind of mental processing

3407
02:20:02,230 --> 02:20:00,560
that that creates these

3408
02:20:03,990 --> 02:20:02,240
or at least gives form to these

3409
02:20:05,830 --> 02:20:04,000
experiences

3410
02:20:07,750 --> 02:20:05,840
well you know one of the problems here

3411
02:20:09,429 --> 02:20:07,760
is is that we don't have any

3412
02:20:11,910 --> 02:20:09,439
really good

3413
02:20:13,590 --> 02:20:11,920
at least as far as i know substantial

3414
02:20:15,750 --> 02:20:13,600
cases like we did

3415
02:20:17,910 --> 02:20:15,760
back in the uh you know

3416
02:20:20,469 --> 02:20:17,920
years ago most of the things that we

3417
02:20:22,150 --> 02:20:20,479
hear about uh are of the high

3418
02:20:23,670 --> 02:20:22,160
strangeness uh

3419
02:20:29,030 --> 02:20:23,680
uh

3420
02:20:31,270 --> 02:20:29,040
presented with a really good hardcore

3421
02:20:33,510 --> 02:20:31,280
cases to

3422
02:20:35,030 --> 02:20:33,520
uh investigate now let me ask you

3423
02:20:36,630 --> 02:20:35,040
something before we go on before you

3424
02:20:37,670 --> 02:20:36,640
continue with that premise

3425
02:20:40,230 --> 02:20:37,680
tim

3426
02:20:42,550 --> 02:20:40,240
we've had chris rutkowski on

3427
02:20:43,830 --> 02:20:42,560
the canadian ufo researcher

3428
02:20:45,990 --> 02:20:43,840
and every year there's a bunch of

3429
02:20:47,910 --> 02:20:46,000
sightings and some are pretty

3430
02:20:49,990 --> 02:20:47,920
interesting and we have that

3431
02:20:52,389 --> 02:20:50,000
certain ufo organization whose name will

3432
02:20:54,710 --> 02:20:52,399
go unmentioned that claims to receive a

3433
02:20:56,790 --> 02:20:54,720
consistent number of sightings so is it

3434
02:21:01,429 --> 02:20:56,800
the number of sightings

3435
02:21:03,030 --> 02:21:01,439
the extent to which they offer the extra

3436
02:21:05,190 --> 02:21:03,040
details

3437
02:21:06,870 --> 02:21:05,200
well i think yes the cal the caliber of

3438
02:21:08,710 --> 02:21:06,880
the sighting is what i would be uh

3439
02:21:11,750 --> 02:21:08,720
referring to i mean certainly there are

3440
02:21:13,429 --> 02:21:11,760
reports uh peter davenport probably does

3441
02:21:14,870 --> 02:21:13,439
as far as i'm concerned the best job of

3442
02:21:19,110 --> 02:21:14,880
all of uh

3443
02:21:21,429 --> 02:21:19,120
maintaining a database uh on on this but

3444
02:21:23,990 --> 02:21:21,439
you certainly don't have the media

3445
02:21:27,270 --> 02:21:24,000
bringing this to the attention of the of

3446
02:21:29,110 --> 02:21:27,280
the public or to researchers so

3447
02:21:32,070 --> 02:21:29,120
even if there is a good case

3448
02:21:32,870 --> 02:21:32,080
by time it gets any attention uh at all

3449
02:21:35,190 --> 02:21:32,880
i mean

3450
02:21:37,830 --> 02:21:35,200
i i tend not to accept anything that i

3451
02:21:39,510 --> 02:21:37,840
uh that i see on the internet because

3452
02:21:41,670 --> 02:21:39,520
most of it is very anonymous and you

3453
02:21:43,030 --> 02:21:41,680
have really no way of checking it out in

3454
02:21:45,270 --> 02:21:43,040
the old days you know there was that

3455
02:21:47,349 --> 02:21:45,280
newspaper clipping uh in front of you we

3456
02:21:49,590 --> 02:21:47,359
probably probably all at one time or

3457
02:21:51,270 --> 02:21:49,600
another subscribed to a news clipping

3458
02:21:53,030 --> 02:21:51,280
service and uh

3459
02:21:55,030 --> 02:21:53,040
lo and behold they were you know there

3460
02:21:57,349 --> 02:21:55,040
were witnesses in in

3461
02:21:58,790 --> 02:21:57,359
specific places and you could call them

3462
02:22:00,230 --> 02:21:58,800
on the telephone and you could get

3463
02:22:02,870 --> 02:22:00,240
additional uh

3464
02:22:04,230 --> 02:22:02,880
data in fact that's probably how i went

3465
02:22:06,230 --> 02:22:04,240
uh from

3466
02:22:09,030 --> 02:22:06,240
nuts and bolts to uh

3467
02:22:11,590 --> 02:22:09,040
to high strangeness i would investigate

3468
02:22:13,190 --> 02:22:11,600
some of these cases that started out as

3469
02:22:16,309 --> 02:22:13,200
nuts and bolts but when i met the

3470
02:22:18,870 --> 02:22:16,319
witnesses firsthand and communicated

3471
02:22:20,950 --> 02:22:18,880
with them directly i found out that uh

3472
02:22:23,510 --> 02:22:20,960
you know they might have had a sighting

3473
02:22:25,349 --> 02:22:23,520
of a physical object uh in the sky or

3474
02:22:27,990 --> 02:22:25,359
something that had landed uh you know in

3475
02:22:30,070 --> 02:22:28,000
their in their yard but uh if you talk

3476
02:22:32,230 --> 02:22:30,080
to them uh privately you'd find out that

3477
02:22:35,030 --> 02:22:32,240
there was a heck of a lot more going on

3478
02:22:37,349 --> 02:22:35,040
that took place uh after this initial

3479
02:22:40,870 --> 02:22:37,359
experience

3480
02:22:41,990 --> 02:22:40,880
um i can make a suggestion that tim may

3481
02:22:44,790 --> 02:22:42,000
have

3482
02:22:46,870 --> 02:22:44,800
missed so far but i run this

3483
02:22:48,550 --> 02:22:46,880
virtually daily for the last couple of

3484
02:22:52,309 --> 02:22:48,560
years because i think it was on your

3485
02:22:55,429 --> 02:22:52,319
program gene but uh this is alan but uh

3486
02:22:59,510 --> 02:22:55,439
i uh somebody said well where are where

3487
02:23:02,150 --> 02:22:59,520
are the sightings now well i i read the

3488
02:23:05,110 --> 02:23:02,160
for other reasons i read the google

3489
02:23:09,110 --> 02:23:05,120
news feed every day and it mostly is

3490
02:23:11,910 --> 02:23:09,120
from respectable uh uh sources

3491
02:23:15,270 --> 02:23:11,920
and there uh if you you know include in

3492
02:23:17,750 --> 02:23:15,280
your category of interest ufos you will

3493
02:23:19,030 --> 02:23:17,760
find that there are ufo cases in the

3494
02:23:22,630 --> 02:23:19,040
traditional

3495
02:23:26,550 --> 02:23:22,640
sense of not particularly numinous

3496
02:23:29,910 --> 02:23:26,560
that are typical of ufo cases from june

3497
02:23:33,429 --> 02:23:29,920
24 1947 through

3498
02:23:35,670 --> 02:23:33,439
now every day every single day

3499
02:23:38,309 --> 02:23:35,680
some of them are foreign some of them

3500
02:23:39,190 --> 02:23:38,319
are domestic some of them are from

3501
02:23:42,710 --> 02:23:39,200
uh

3502
02:23:47,270 --> 02:23:45,429
less reliable sources like breitbart

3503
02:23:50,630 --> 02:23:47,280
which i ignore

3504
02:23:52,630 --> 02:23:50,640
or sputnik which is uh an arm of the

3505
02:23:55,190 --> 02:23:52,640
russian government which is that's still

3506
02:23:57,110 --> 02:23:55,200
being published oh yeah oh my god and

3507
02:23:59,349 --> 02:23:57,120
the point is you don't miss a letter of

3508
02:24:01,830 --> 02:23:59,359
mine when i was about 16 years old and

3509
02:24:04,230 --> 02:24:01,840
you know i got ufo reports and clippings

3510
02:24:06,790 --> 02:24:04,240
and stuff from a lot of the then the

3511
02:24:08,469 --> 02:24:06,800
soviet bloc countries let's go back to

3512
02:24:11,590 --> 02:24:08,479
allen in our next segment and final

3513
02:24:14,309 --> 02:24:11,600
segment teen ufologists definitely

3514
02:24:15,670 --> 02:24:14,319
grow up alan greenfield tim beckley

3515
02:24:17,830 --> 02:24:15,680
jerome clark

3516
02:24:28,430 --> 02:24:17,840
rick hillberg j randall murphy our

3517
02:24:33,030 --> 02:24:29,510
[Applause]

3518
02:24:37,110 --> 02:24:33,040
thank you for listening to gcn

3519
02:24:39,429 --> 02:24:37,120
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3532
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3533
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success and now there is the coming of

3534
02:25:16,150 --> 02:25:13,920
the protectors a former military

3535
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3536
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woman in a dream a dream that turns out

3537
02:25:22,469 --> 02:25:20,880
to be a nightmare because evil forces on

3538
02:25:24,710 --> 02:25:22,479
her distant planet are planning to

3539
02:25:27,270 --> 02:25:24,720
conquer the earth this is gripping

3540
02:25:29,110 --> 02:25:27,280
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3541
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3542
02:25:34,030 --> 02:25:31,160
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3543
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3544
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3588
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3591
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3593
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3599
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3600
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3601
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3602
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3605
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3606
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3607
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3608
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3609
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3610
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3611
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ralph remember when you said you were

3612
02:28:13,030 --> 02:28:11,600
going to start paying more attention to

3613
02:28:15,030 --> 02:28:13,040
your health and now you're eating potato

3614
02:28:16,710 --> 02:28:15,040
chips just a few a few okay but you

3615
02:28:18,950 --> 02:28:16,720
should be eating super berries aronia

3616
02:28:20,710 --> 02:28:18,960
berries aroni what aronia berries from

3617
02:28:22,150 --> 02:28:20,720
superberries.com they're known for

3618
02:28:23,830 --> 02:28:22,160
having one of the highest levels of

3619
02:28:26,630 --> 02:28:23,840
antioxidants that helps with overall

3620
02:28:28,230 --> 02:28:26,640
wellness go to superberries.com

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3622
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02:28:33,510 --> 02:28:31,840
save four dollars at checkout wow look

3624
02:28:35,990 --> 02:28:33,520
at all the benefits of these berries i

3625
02:28:39,490 --> 02:28:36,000
know ralph i know choose health eat

3626
02:28:45,670 --> 02:28:44,309
[Music]

3627
02:28:47,270 --> 02:28:45,680
this is micah hanks at the gravely

3628
02:28:49,590 --> 02:28:47,280
report and you're listening to the

3629
02:28:52,790 --> 02:28:49,600
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

3630
02:29:01,190 --> 02:28:58,309
[Music]

3631
02:29:04,630 --> 02:29:01,200
the google news feed has your typical

3632
02:29:06,070 --> 02:29:04,640
ufo cases every single day when i check

3633
02:29:08,309 --> 02:29:06,080
google news

3634
02:29:09,910 --> 02:29:08,319
i indicate ufos is one of the topics i

3635
02:29:12,630 --> 02:29:09,920
look for and there's always something

3636
02:29:15,429 --> 02:29:12,640
there yeah that actually for some reason

3637
02:29:17,750 --> 02:29:15,439
on my feed it it comes out as two

3638
02:29:19,910 --> 02:29:17,760
different ones but you know you you

3639
02:29:23,590 --> 02:29:19,920
check beyond the sources but

3640
02:29:25,670 --> 02:29:23,600
i will reprint those on if they allow

3641
02:29:28,150 --> 02:29:25,680
reprinting on

3642
02:29:31,429 --> 02:29:28,160
on my blog not because i'm particularly

3643
02:29:33,990 --> 02:29:31,439
interested in that type of case now

3644
02:29:36,870 --> 02:29:34,000
but because a lot of my readers are and

3645
02:29:38,790 --> 02:29:36,880
also i do want to refute that notion

3646
02:29:41,830 --> 02:29:38,800
that is out there that where are the

3647
02:29:42,710 --> 02:29:41,840
ufos actually the number of sightings

3648
02:29:44,309 --> 02:29:42,720
this

3649
02:29:47,110 --> 02:29:44,319
past year

3650
02:29:48,389 --> 02:29:47,120
exceeded anything in the past five years

3651
02:29:51,349 --> 02:29:48,399
it's sort of like

3652
02:29:53,429 --> 02:29:51,359
global warming if you graph it it's uh

3653
02:29:55,030 --> 02:29:53,439
very interesting but uh

3654
02:29:58,070 --> 02:29:55,040
doesn't prove anything one way or the

3655
02:30:00,469 --> 02:29:58,080
other yeah and uh

3656
02:30:03,030 --> 02:30:00,479
but it's important to note that ordinary

3657
02:30:05,510 --> 02:30:03,040
ufo cases are still out there for anyone

3658
02:30:08,389 --> 02:30:05,520
who would care to investigate them uh

3659
02:30:10,790 --> 02:30:08,399
beyond you know a news clipping so to

3660
02:30:12,309 --> 02:30:10,800
speak well i think in the news what we

3661
02:30:14,389 --> 02:30:12,319
see a lot of the times is just someone

3662
02:30:15,910 --> 02:30:14,399
will put ufo or flying saucer or

3663
02:30:18,150 --> 02:30:15,920
something strange just as part of the

3664
02:30:19,670 --> 02:30:18,160
headline in order to get those people

3665
02:30:21,990 --> 02:30:19,680
who are interested

3666
02:30:24,070 --> 02:30:22,000
to pick up the the story it's a

3667
02:30:25,750 --> 02:30:24,080
attention getter it's part of the fake

3668
02:30:27,429 --> 02:30:25,760
news thing so

3669
02:30:29,349 --> 02:30:27,439
how do you differentiate between

3670
02:30:30,150 --> 02:30:29,359
something's fake news and something that

3671
02:30:32,469 --> 02:30:30,160
isn't

3672
02:30:34,070 --> 02:30:32,479
well remember first of all that that's

3673
02:30:35,670 --> 02:30:34,080
called click bait

3674
02:30:37,910 --> 02:30:35,680
you say something the other thing is you

3675
02:30:39,270 --> 02:30:37,920
say something nasty about apple

3676
02:30:41,110 --> 02:30:39,280
incorporated

3677
02:30:43,510 --> 02:30:41,120
you know the iphone 8 is going to be a

3678
02:30:45,830 --> 02:30:43,520
big failure that's a click bait also

3679
02:30:48,230 --> 02:30:45,840
if it new york times or the london times

3680
02:30:49,750 --> 02:30:48,240
or a number of other things uh first of

3681
02:30:51,830 --> 02:30:49,760
all i

3682
02:30:54,230 --> 02:30:51,840
fake news is a term that i find

3683
02:30:56,309 --> 02:30:54,240
reprehensible but uh

3684
02:30:58,790 --> 02:30:56,319
we're liable to lose the first amendment

3685
02:31:00,790 --> 02:30:58,800
if we continue to use terminology like

3686
02:31:01,830 --> 02:31:00,800
that but having said that

3687
02:31:05,349 --> 02:31:01,840
um

3688
02:31:07,190 --> 02:31:05,359
i i don't i don't reprint uh sightings

3689
02:31:09,190 --> 02:31:07,200
that don't seem to have some meat on the

3690
02:31:10,630 --> 02:31:09,200
boat yeah

3691
02:31:13,110 --> 02:31:10,640
but if

3692
02:31:16,070 --> 02:31:13,120
i just put out the basic information and

3693
02:31:17,990 --> 02:31:16,080
if someone who is interested in the

3694
02:31:21,190 --> 02:31:18,000
what was that term that you use jerry

3695
02:31:23,510 --> 02:31:21,200
for the uh more traditional cases of

3696
02:31:26,710 --> 02:31:23,520
things that can anomalies event

3697
02:31:28,710 --> 02:31:26,720
anomalies then they have that starting

3698
02:31:29,990 --> 02:31:28,720
point of

3699
02:31:31,190 --> 02:31:30,000
people

3700
02:31:32,950 --> 02:31:31,200
in

3701
02:31:34,710 --> 02:31:32,960
x saw

3702
02:31:35,429 --> 02:31:34,720
phenomena

3703
02:31:38,469 --> 02:31:35,439
z

3704
02:31:41,190 --> 02:31:38,479
and usually it gives names real names

3705
02:31:43,270 --> 02:31:41,200
and you can go from there if you're into

3706
02:31:45,830 --> 02:31:43,280
that kind of investigation that's just

3707
02:31:48,710 --> 02:31:45,840
not where where i'm at i'm more

3708
02:31:50,790 --> 02:31:48,720
likely to refer people to william james

3709
02:31:52,630 --> 02:31:50,800
and the varieties of religious

3710
02:31:56,230 --> 02:31:52,640
experience than i am

3711
02:31:59,750 --> 02:31:56,240
to donald kehoe and

3712
02:32:02,870 --> 02:31:59,760
the variety of flying saucers top secret

3713
02:32:04,389 --> 02:32:02,880
i think the early ufo literature which i

3714
02:32:06,070 --> 02:32:04,399
read and just

3715
02:32:08,469 --> 02:32:06,080
i returned to when i was working on the

3716
02:32:10,389 --> 02:32:08,479
encyclopedia it's not completely

3717
02:32:12,469 --> 02:32:10,399
worthless i mean there's stuff there

3718
02:32:14,550 --> 02:32:12,479
that's recorded and that's all good and

3719
02:32:17,590 --> 02:32:14,560
that's that helps us but

3720
02:32:19,910 --> 02:32:17,600
generally it's the theorizing

3721
02:32:21,750 --> 02:32:19,920
understanding and i'm not pointing

3722
02:32:24,550 --> 02:32:21,760
fingers because i understand where they

3723
02:32:25,670 --> 02:32:24,560
were back then but it's pretty primitive

3724
02:32:28,550 --> 02:32:25,680
there wasn't

3725
02:32:30,150 --> 02:32:28,560
a lot of really kind of serious thinking

3726
02:32:32,710 --> 02:32:30,160
and that includes serious thinking about

3727
02:32:35,349 --> 02:32:32,720
the extraterrestrial hypothesis back

3728
02:32:38,550 --> 02:32:35,359
then it was all pretty superficial it

3729
02:32:40,630 --> 02:32:38,560
was all amateurs even the people that

3730
02:32:42,790 --> 02:32:40,640
worked on the air force project which

3731
02:32:44,950 --> 02:32:42,800
people seem to think discovered

3732
02:32:47,030 --> 02:32:44,960
something of significance they were not

3733
02:32:49,910 --> 02:32:47,040
particularly trained in that in that

3734
02:32:53,030 --> 02:32:49,920
area it's like the the old saw about

3735
02:32:55,349 --> 02:32:53,040
cops or reliable witnesses for ufo cases

3736
02:32:57,429 --> 02:32:55,359
so you can trust those cases are not

3737
02:32:58,710 --> 02:32:57,439
necessarily any better than anybody else

3738
02:33:00,950 --> 02:32:58,720
cops are

3739
02:33:01,990 --> 02:33:00,960
human beings and at four o'clock in the

3740
02:33:02,790 --> 02:33:02,000
morning

3741
02:33:10,790 --> 02:33:02,800
and

3742
02:33:13,110 --> 02:33:10,800
go i've back in my days when i was doing

3743
02:33:14,870 --> 02:33:13,120
field investigations that was like the

3744
02:33:17,429 --> 02:33:14,880
first thing i asked for would it look

3745
02:33:19,750 --> 02:33:17,439
like a morning star well yeah sort of

3746
02:33:21,830 --> 02:33:19,760
like what was one thing that really

3747
02:33:23,670 --> 02:33:21,840
among the many surprises that i

3748
02:33:25,670 --> 02:33:23,680
experienced while i was researching the

3749
02:33:28,550 --> 02:33:25,680
encyclopedia volumes

3750
02:33:32,230 --> 02:33:28,560
was how good nightcap's investigations

3751
02:33:34,870 --> 02:33:32,240
were nycap had these field organizations

3752
02:33:36,870 --> 02:33:34,880
they would go out to investigate cases

3753
02:33:39,830 --> 02:33:36,880
and they would do just

3754
02:33:41,830 --> 02:33:39,840
amazing jobs running down just about

3755
02:33:44,070 --> 02:33:41,840
everything and they'd come back with

3756
02:33:46,230 --> 02:33:44,080
these sick reports

3757
02:33:49,110 --> 02:33:46,240
that even now make for utterly

3758
02:33:52,309 --> 02:33:49,120
fascinating reading but

3759
02:33:55,349 --> 02:33:52,319
you'd read the nightcap ufo investigator

3760
02:33:56,630 --> 02:33:55,359
and all you would read was blasting the

3761
02:33:59,190 --> 02:33:56,640
air force

3762
02:34:00,150 --> 02:33:59,200
there was no indication that these real

3763
02:34:03,510 --> 02:34:00,160
in-depth

3764
02:34:06,309 --> 02:34:03,520
field investigations by capable people

3765
02:34:09,270 --> 02:34:06,319
hard-working people were going on

3766
02:34:11,190 --> 02:34:09,280
and so nightcap i was able to draw on a

3767
02:34:13,910 --> 02:34:11,200
lot of those field reports

3768
02:34:16,550 --> 02:34:13,920
in the encyclopedia which i realized was

3769
02:34:19,670 --> 02:34:16,560
the first time that these investigations

3770
02:34:22,070 --> 02:34:19,680
got a full exposure nycap in a sense was

3771
02:34:24,630 --> 02:34:22,080
its own worst enemy well you know kehoe

3772
02:34:26,710 --> 02:34:24,640
wanted it to be a lobbying organization

3773
02:34:28,630 --> 02:34:26,720
let's get congressional hearings i'm

3774
02:34:30,710 --> 02:34:28,640
working to put nightcap out of business

3775
02:34:32,630 --> 02:34:30,720
he said all those things

3776
02:34:34,790 --> 02:34:32,640
just down from the corner of dupont

3777
02:34:37,510 --> 02:34:34,800
circle in connecticut avenue where gene

3778
02:34:38,550 --> 02:34:37,520
was thrown out of the office for reasons

3779
02:34:41,110 --> 02:34:38,560
unknown

3780
02:34:44,469 --> 02:34:41,120
otherwise i would have never met velay

3781
02:34:47,190 --> 02:34:44,479
heineck or ray palmer so thank you gene

3782
02:34:49,349 --> 02:34:47,200
well i feel so happy to be thrown out of

3783
02:34:51,910 --> 02:34:49,359
nycap except that i met up with richard

3784
02:34:54,550 --> 02:34:51,920
hall maybe a decade later

3785
02:34:56,550 --> 02:34:54,560
and we shook hands and he realized i

3786
02:34:58,870 --> 02:34:56,560
think then he was way out of turn we've

3787
02:35:00,469 --> 02:34:58,880
talked about that a thousand and one

3788
02:35:02,630 --> 02:35:00,479
times so i'm not going to bother with it

3789
02:35:05,429 --> 02:35:02,640
now some of our people here still have

3790
02:35:06,710 --> 02:35:05,439
ventures to publicize so tim beckley

3791
02:35:08,150 --> 02:35:06,720
very briefly

3792
02:35:10,790 --> 02:35:08,160
if listeners want to know about the

3793
02:35:14,309 --> 02:35:10,800
things you do tell them where to go okay

3794
02:35:17,510 --> 02:35:14,319
the two latest books would be the matrix

3795
02:35:20,469 --> 02:35:17,520
control system of philip k dick

3796
02:35:22,389 --> 02:35:20,479
and my synchronicities all about 50 of

3797
02:35:23,990 --> 02:35:22,399
them these are very wild i mean we're

3798
02:35:25,750 --> 02:35:24,000
not talking about looking at the clock

3799
02:35:27,510 --> 02:35:25,760
and seeing

3800
02:35:28,950 --> 02:35:27,520
or thinking about somebody in the you

3801
02:35:32,309 --> 02:35:28,960
know they call the telephone two days

3802
02:35:33,670 --> 02:35:32,319
later and the nazi ufo time travelers

3803
02:35:35,590 --> 02:35:33,680
and of course if you want to get a free

3804
02:35:39,190 --> 02:35:35,600
newsletter or be on the mailing list

3805
02:35:42,150 --> 02:35:39,200
just drop me an email at mruf08

3806
02:35:43,830 --> 02:35:42,160
at hotmail.com we still publish a print

3807
02:35:46,790 --> 02:35:43,840
catalog in a newsletter and of course

3808
02:35:49,270 --> 02:35:46,800
we're online as well rick hillberg

3809
02:35:52,309 --> 02:35:49,280
you're still doing stuff yes i am i've

3810
02:35:54,150 --> 02:35:52,319
been publishing continuously since 1962.

3811
02:35:56,950 --> 02:35:54,160
currently i'm the editor and publisher

3812
02:36:00,469 --> 02:35:56,960
of flying saucer digest to celebrate our

3813
02:36:02,230 --> 02:36:00,479
50th anniversary since about 1997

3814
02:36:04,309 --> 02:36:02,240
i've been spending a lot of time on

3815
02:36:06,070 --> 02:36:04,319
historical research going over these old

3816
02:36:08,469 --> 02:36:06,080
cases cataloging stuff putting it

3817
02:36:10,710 --> 02:36:08,479
together retrospective kind of stuff you

3818
02:36:13,429 --> 02:36:10,720
know whether it's good or not it just

3819
02:36:15,990 --> 02:36:13,439
fascinates me so i've done about 18 or

3820
02:36:18,070 --> 02:36:16,000
20 small books on the subject over the

3821
02:36:20,030 --> 02:36:18,080
years if you want to contact me just

3822
02:36:21,590 --> 02:36:20,040
find me on facebook hillberg

3823
02:36:23,349 --> 02:36:21,600
h-i-l-b-e-r-g

3824
02:36:26,230 --> 02:36:23,359
you can send me a message and i'll send

3825
02:36:27,750 --> 02:36:26,240
you a free sample copy of fsd jerry

3826
02:36:30,790 --> 02:36:27,760
clark you got anything going we can

3827
02:36:33,510 --> 02:36:30,800
check out all of my writing my anomalies

3828
02:36:37,030 --> 02:36:33,520
writing appears in 40 times and that's

3829
02:36:37,910 --> 02:36:37,040
features essays and reviews my last two

3830
02:36:40,870 --> 02:36:37,920
books

3831
02:36:43,910 --> 02:36:40,880
hidden realms and unexplained are

3832
02:36:45,590 --> 02:36:43,920
available through the usual sources i'm

3833
02:36:47,910 --> 02:36:45,600
out of the book writing business but i'm

3834
02:36:50,150 --> 02:36:47,920
not out of thinking about anomalies and

3835
02:36:52,070 --> 02:36:50,160
writing about them alan greenfield

3836
02:36:55,110 --> 02:36:52,080
quickly

3837
02:36:57,510 --> 02:36:55,120
who are you talking to i have a new book

3838
02:37:00,070 --> 02:36:57,520
that's in the works the working title is

3839
02:37:02,389 --> 02:37:00,080
god never does the same thing twice

3840
02:37:04,630 --> 02:37:02,399
which is a quote from the rabbi of

3841
02:37:07,750 --> 02:37:04,640
bratislav but the publisher may change

3842
02:37:10,389 --> 02:37:07,760
the title because god sells to different

3843
02:37:12,790 --> 02:37:10,399
audience than mine and complete right of

3844
02:37:15,429 --> 02:37:12,800
memphis revised edition is still going

3845
02:37:17,990 --> 02:37:15,439
strong and there is the complete

3846
02:37:19,990 --> 02:37:18,000
c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e

3847
02:37:21,750 --> 02:37:20,000
secret cipher of the euphonix which

3848
02:37:24,150 --> 02:37:21,760
includes both secret cipher the

3849
02:37:25,270 --> 02:37:24,160
euphonites and secret rituals of the men

3850
02:37:28,230 --> 02:37:25,280
in black

3851
02:37:30,790 --> 02:37:28,240
pioneering in its area and

3852
02:37:33,750 --> 02:37:30,800
a publisher called paranoia publishing

3853
02:37:36,790 --> 02:37:33,760
has it out they do pay royalty so please

3854
02:37:39,030 --> 02:37:36,800
buy it okay very good you can find us on

3855
02:37:42,230 --> 02:37:39,040
twitter if you look for the powercast

3856
02:37:44,550 --> 02:37:42,240
you can find two powercast fan clubs

3857
02:37:48,070 --> 02:37:44,560
on facebook you can also subscribe to

3858
02:37:50,070 --> 02:37:48,080
the powercast plus go to plus plus dot

3859
02:37:51,750 --> 02:37:50,080
the powercast.com

3860
02:37:54,230 --> 02:37:51,760
you get the commercial free version of

3861
02:37:56,230 --> 02:37:54,240
this show better quality audio

3862
02:37:57,429 --> 02:37:56,240
the after the powercast podcast where

3863
02:37:59,349 --> 02:37:57,439
you never know what's going to happen

3864
02:38:02,389 --> 02:37:59,359
next and other stuff

3865
02:38:04,550 --> 02:38:02,399
and that new tv show haunted from

3866
02:38:05,830 --> 02:38:04,560
paul kimball we're gonna have one or two

3867
02:38:07,510 --> 02:38:05,840
exclusive

3868
02:38:10,870 --> 02:38:07,520
videos from there

3869
02:38:12,469 --> 02:38:10,880
your co-host was j randall murphy jerry

3870
02:38:14,710 --> 02:38:12,479
clark thanks for joining us on the power

3871
02:38:17,110 --> 02:38:14,720
cast well thank you for having me but it

3872
02:38:19,670 --> 02:38:17,120
was it was fun always is

3873
02:38:21,670 --> 02:38:19,680
rick hillberg thank you so much thank

3874
02:38:24,630 --> 02:38:21,680
you it's uh good talking to all of you

3875
02:38:26,150 --> 02:38:24,640
uh old geezers again on great field

3876
02:38:29,030 --> 02:38:26,160
thank you

3877
02:38:31,590 --> 02:38:29,040
i am not an old geezer i'll see you in

3878
02:38:35,590 --> 02:38:31,600
time tim beckley thank you for joining

3879
02:38:38,630 --> 02:38:35,600
us well i still have all my hair

3880
02:38:54,070 --> 02:38:38,640
and uh glad to be on and hello to

3881
02:38:59,830 --> 02:38:56,950
the paracast featuring gene steinberg

3882
02:39:02,790 --> 02:38:59,840
and christopher o'brien is a copyrighted

3883
02:39:04,550 --> 02:39:02,800
presentation of making the impossible

3884
02:39:08,710 --> 02:39:04,560
incorporated